Red Wings 2024-25 Season Catch All

[kipwinger 8,742]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Ok, well, he better be able to sign that YOUNG A+ talent then. Plus bring up more kids. Throw the checkbook at Rantanen in the summer. I am pretty sure Larkin wouldn't be bothered by not being the topped paid guy here if it meant getting to the playoffs and having a shot at a Cup before he's old.

Lefty, I'm saying this with a smile on my face so know that I mean it in good humor but...how long is it going to take you to realize that "throwing the checkbook" at 30 year old players is not a good or sustainable way of building a team. Players fall off a cliff at this age in most cases. You're paying them a premium in UFA and all their best years are behind them. Literally watch Nashville play this season and tell me that "throwing the checkbook" at older players in UFA seems like a good idea to you.

Edit: If there's an obvious trade to be made for top talent then I'm all for it. For instance, we should have traded for Eichel when he was available. But short of that, I'm not paying a premium for guys who are 28+ years old. Their contracts are almost never worth it and you end up hamstringing your team for years with dead cap space.

Edited December 16, 2024 by kipwinger

[AtlantaHotWings 1,117]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

 

Pretty much. It's clearly Yzerman is just treading water until the majority of the team is made up of HIS draft picks. He let the team fall apart last year and did not bolster the team via the trade deadline, then didn't retain much of the talent he was set to lose in FA, and then finally gutted the defense through trades. It really seems like he's planning to "contend" with a team whose oldest player is Larkin. All the rest (Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Petry, Kane, Tarasenko) will be gone and replaced by Yzerman draft picks over the coming years and it seems like that's when he's looking to compete.

So will we see various picks coming up to dip their toe in the big show then back to GR the rest of the year?

Thought Cossa did decent with the chance he got as it was like getting thrown into the deep end and figure it out time. 

[kipwinger 8,742]

On 12/16/2024 at 12:28 PM, AtlantaHotWings said:

So will we see various picks coming up to dip their toe in the big show then back to GR the rest of the year?

Thought Cossa did decent with the chance he got as it was like getting thrown into the deep end and figure it out time. prs

I'd imagine so. Our development strategy has been working so far, don't see any reason why SY would change course. We have not drafted in the top three at all during our rebuild and we've got two stud defenders, a point per game winger, a couple of stud goalie prospects, and about a zillion other higher end prospects dominating their respective leagues. I see no reason to change things up.

As far as Cossa, I thought he did well for his first NHL game. My feeling on him are well known. He's a stud and you really couldn't ask for a better goalie prospect. Leave him in the AHL this year (barring injury call ups) and let him be "the man" during GR's playoff run, and then let Cam Talbot teach him how to be an NHL goalie next season.

Edited December 19, 2024 by kipwinger

[Jimmybigrigs69 332]

12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't agree. Imagine if Colorado had started trading away first round draft picks because they'd already drafted Ryan O'Reilly, Matt Duchene, Tyson Barrie, Paul Stastny, Keven Shattenkirk, and Gabriel Landeskog? They'd have missed on MacKinnon, Rantanen, or Makar. Yzerman should absolutely NOT do anything different regarding drafting and developing. It's the one area where our team has most obviously improved. Under Yzerman we've hit on draft picks over and over in all rounds. Look at the success we've had finding talent OUTSIDE the 1st round: Mazur, Wallinder, Buchelnikov, Augustine, Lombardi, Finnie, etc. We need to make our picks until we're obviously a contender and THEN start trading draft picks away.

We need a new coach and we need SY to make better choices regarding the pro-scouting aspect of the game. But even THAT'S an overblown problem because people seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater on pro-scouting too. Everyone says our pro-scouting is bad, but I don't really agree. Is there anyone who WOULDN'T have traded Fabbri for De La Rose? Leddy for Walman and picks? Signed Gostisbehere, Sprong, or Perron? Even Compher and Copp? Those guys have bad contracts (which is on SY and not the pro-scouting staff), but they're both useful players. Chiarot too. Even the two trades for Husso and Ned were decent at the time.

The real problem is that SY has made a series of terrible decisions regarding this player pool. He's generally kept crappier players than he's let go. We'd all rather have Perron, Fabbri, Sprong, Walman, or Ghost than Kane, Tarasenko, Motte, Petry, Holl, etc. He's also (at times) given roster spots to veterans when prospects were ready to fill those roles (Berggren, Edvinsson, Kasper). Those are my big complains aside from coaching.

There was a rumor that Jacob Trouba refused to come to Detroit via trade. So what? Can't believe everything you read.

Here's a thing I know for sure: It's clear now that giving Stamkos 8+ million would have been a profoundly stupid idea and it was just as stupid a few months ago. I don't care if whether it was YOUR bad idea or Yzerman's, it's still  a really, really, really, really, REALLY stupid idea. So own that one if you want.

Can't win if you don't gamble.

SY not looking to good though. He apparently wanted to give MORE to Stammer to win the player from Nashville. Walman is making that trade look down right foolish. Tarasenko Kane and Gustafsson suck. Coaching already in question. 

This team has deeper problems than whether or not Stamkos is sucking with Nash. 

[LeftWinger 5,110]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Lefty, I'm saying this with a smile on my face so know that I mean it in good humor but...how long is it going to take you to realize that "throwing the checkbook" at 30 year old players is not a good or sustainable way of building a team. Players fall off a cliff at this age in most cases. You're paying them a premium in UFA and all their best years are behind them. Literally watch Nashville play this season and tell me that "throwing the checkbook" at older players in UFA seems like a good idea to you.

Edit: If there's an obvious trade to be made for top talent then I'm all for it. For instance, we should have traded for Eichel when he was available. But short of that, I'm not paying a premium for guys who are 28+ years old. Their contracts are almost never worth it and you end up hamstringing your team for years with dead cap space.

Yes, but Rantanen is a consistent, proven 100+ point player. We really don't have anyone in the system that is the same. Raymond might be an 80-90 point player, but he would need talent around him to help support that. I agree with you about throwing money around, but 1 Rantanen at $15M is much better than the $20M we have tied up in Kane, Copp, Veleno, Ras, and Compher. I believe we need to make a splash like that, and then bring up kids instead of signing six 33+ year old guys. Trading for Eichel would've been good, that is why IF there were to be a under 25 year old star available, I am ok with throwing a 1st out there in a package.

[kipwinger 8,742]

12 minutes ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Can't win if you don't gamble.

SY not looking to good though. He apparently wanted to give MORE to Stammer to win the player from Nashville. Walman is making that trade look down right foolish. Tarasenko Kane and Gustafsson suck. Coaching already in question. 

This team has deeper problems than whether or not Stamkos is sucking with Nash. 

See, I think it's the SAME problem. Whether it's Gustafsson at 2 million, Tarasenko at 4 million, or Stamkos at 8 million, the problem is that SY doesn't seem to be convinced that none of these guys are worth a roster spot. In most cases we've got better options internally and even when we don't the contracts are prohibitive. I'd rather have Johansson play every single game one an entry level deal than pay Gustafsson 2 million to suck for another season. I'd rather have Fabbri for the rest of this year at 3 million than Tarasenko at 4 million for another year. And I'd MUCH rather have Danielson or Kasper or Mazur on entry level deals than Stamkos for 4 years at 8+ million.

2 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Yes, but Rantanen is a consistent, proven 100+ point player. We really don't have anyone in the system that is the same. Raymond might be an 80-90 point player, but he would need talent around him to help support that. I agree with you about throwing money around, but 1 Rantanen at $15M is much better than the $20M we have tied up in Kane, Copp, Veleno, Ras, and Compher. I believe we need to make a splash like that, and then bring up kids instead of signing six 33+ year old guys. Trading for Eichel would've been good, that is why IF there were to be a under 25 year old star available, I am ok with throwing a 1st out there in a package.

Are you willing to bet the future of your team (15 million on a long term deal) that a big part of Rantanen's success isn't because he's the winger to a Hall of Fame level superstar center like MacKinnon? I'm not. It's bad business.

Edited December 16, 2024 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,742]

Rumor has it that Buffalo is taking calls on Dylan Cozens. I'm not sure why they'd trade him, or what the asking price is, but THAT'S the kind of player you need to bring in to the organization NOT a 56 year old has been with bad knees or whatever else Yzerman seems infatuated with.

[AtlantaHotWings 1,117]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Rumor has it that Buffalo is taking calls on Dylan Cozens. I'm not sure why they'd trade him, or what the asking price is, but THAT'S the kind of player you need to bring in to the organization NOT a 56 year old has been with bad knees or whatever else Yzerman seems infatuated with.

Looks like Nashville looking at him https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/nashville-predators/latest-news/nashville-predators-reportedly-interested-in-trade-for-sabres-dylan-cozens

Imagine the starting point is a 1st rounder plus ?

[town123 225]

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

 

Pretty much. It's clearly Yzerman is just treading water until the majority of the team is made up of HIS draft picks. He let the team fall apart last year and did not bolster the team via the trade deadline, then didn't retain much of the talent he was set to lose in FA, and then finally gutted the defense through trades. It really seems like he's planning to "contend" with a team whose oldest player is Larkin. All the rest (Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Petry, Kane, Tarasenko) will be gone and replaced by Yzerman draft picks over the coming years and it seems like that's when he's looking to compete.

SY didn't have much choice really.   Team outperformed their reality and it cost us.   SY at the TDL was like the Wings losing another draft lottery.   He needed to unload contracts for picks and couldn't do that because ownership/fanbase wanted to make the playoffs and almost did. 

 

 Pick a path?   SY and team great at making the most of high picks.   SY bad at FA that he can't unload at TDL.   

 

I think you are bang on with Talbot showing Cossa the ropes next year even though he might be the biggest trade chip this year.   Another dilemma.

[LeftWinger 5,110]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Rumor has it that Buffalo is taking calls on Dylan Cozens. I'm not sure why they'd trade him, or what the asking price is, but THAT'S the kind of player you need to bring in to the organization NOT a 56 year old has been with bad knees or whatever else Yzerman seems infatuated with.

This is what I mean when I say trade a 1st. Yzerman should be on the phone now ready to pay up to get him. 

[mackel 758]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

This is what I mean when I say trade a 1st. Yzerman should be on the phone now ready to pay up to get him. 

This years 1st MUST be lotto protected, top 10, top 5 etc.  Otherwise it's a hard no from me dawg.

[LeftWinger 5,110]

8 hours ago, mackel said:

This years 1st MUST be lotto protected, top 10, top 5 etc.  Otherwise it's a hard no from me dawg.

Yes, I agree! I would say top 10 for sure. Maybe even top 12. Throw a 2025 2nd in there and players. Which players do you think would do it? Prospect?

Edited December 17, 2024 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,742]

11 hours ago, mackel said:

This years 1st MUST be lotto protected, top 10, top 5 etc.  Otherwise it's a hard no from me dawg.

That's what I was going to say as well. I'm okay trading a 1st for younger guys, but it's got to be lotto protected if we're especially bad (and we are definitely that).

Edited December 17, 2024 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 5,110]

 

 

 

 

vbn

Edited February 3 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,742]

On 12/12/2024 at 1:47 PM, kipwinger said:

Both Hughes and Bouchard suck. Lefty, like a lot of fans you're absolutely mesmerized by offense. But individual scoring means very little in terms of team success. Hughes pads his stats against bad teams all season long and gets worked over in the playoffs. Don't believe me? In the Edmonton series (which Vancouver lost), Hughes had 4 secondary assists, 1 primary assist, no goals, and was held scoreless in three other games. Bouchard is even worse. They're just easy offense guys. Remember when Bert and AA had 30 goals for the Wings? Is that because they're good, or because they were gifted prime offensive opportunities which padded their stats, but also meant that the team overall was destined to fail because we had limited players in important roles.

Fans always get this wrong about hockey. They think offense is indicative of quality play as opposed to quality minutes. Take any loser and give him top six minutes and powerplay time and you'll see their numbers thrive while the team fails. Remember Abby on the top line? Remember Ian White on the top pair? Career numbers for both those individuals but the team was worse off for it.

Quinn Hughes and Evan Bouchard suffer from the same problem as Erik Karlsson does. They're only good at scoring, and so to maximize their value you have to play them a lot (so they score a lot) but that also means that they'll be on the ice for a bunch of things they're not good at, like keeping opponents from the crease, protecting leads, winning board battles, defending against top players. And because they don't do those things well, but are still on the ice, you get cycled and scored on a bunch. This is exactly the reason Patrick Kane blows too.

Just in case anyone forgot why the Florida Panthers beat Edmonton in the finals last year, I present to you Exhibit A:

 

[kipwinger 8,742]

Is there a single Red Wings fan who would rather have Luke Hughes than Simon Edvinsson?

[LeftWinger 5,110]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Is there a single Red Wings fan who would rather have Luke Hughes than Simon Edvinsson?

I like Edvinsson, I like Hughes. I think those were Yzerman's 2 choices. If one was gone, he was going to draft the other. I just wonder what he had done if they were both there?

[kipwinger 8,742]

2 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I like Edvinsson, I like Hughes. I think those were Yzerman's 2 choices. If one was gone, he was going to draft the other. I just wonder what he had done if they were both there?

I sure hope he'd still have taken Edvinsson considering he's a much better player than Hughes. He's a FAR better defender - against top competition - and his offense is roughly as good as Hughes' despite Edvinsson not getting any powerplay time. Anybody who would rather have Hughes is smoking crack.

[LeftWinger 5,110]

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I sure hope he'd still have taken Edvinsson considering he's a much better player than Hughes. He's a FAR better defender - against top competition - and his offense is roughly as good as Hughes' despite Edvinsson not getting any powerplay time. Anybody who would rather have Hughes is smoking crack.

I think you are right. It seems Yzerman likes the players that are playing in the men's league over in Europe better than players here throwing kids around in the CHL. The exception, of course, if he was ever awarded 1st overall. I don't see him not drafting any of the 1st overall players taken between 2019 and 2024. Maybe he doesn't take Slafkovsky? He probably would've taken Jack Hughes, Owen Power (Maybe Beniers?) or Bedard if he had one of those 1st overall picks.

Edited December 18, 2024 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,742]

57 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I think you are right. It seems Yzerman likes the players that are playing in the men's league over in Europe better than players here throwing kids around in the CHL. The exception, of course, if he was ever awarded 1st overall. I don't see him not drafting any of the 1st overall players taken between 2019 and 2024. Maybe he doesn't take Slafkovsky? He probably would've taken Jack Hughes, Owen Power (Maybe Beniers?) or Bedard if he had one of those 1st overall picks.

You're probably right, despite the fact that none of those guys are considerably better than the players we took in those drafts. Personally I think the 1OA pick is worth more as a bargaining chip than the player eventually selected is worth. Waaaaaay back in 2015 I suggested that Edmonton should trade the 1OA for the 2OA and whatever else they wanted to Buffalo. Basically give up the chance to draft McDavid and get Eichel plus (for example) Reinhart instead. Obviously most people think McDavid is the better player, but he's not SO much better that the trade wouldn't have been worth while. You can do this for almost every draft in recent memory. Would you rather have Jack Hughes or Moritz Seider plus whatever else Detroit would have given you to jump up to 1OA. Owen Power or Edvinsson plus something else? Slafkovsky or Logan Cooley plus something else? People tend to think the players taken 1OA are just SO MUCH better than the players selected after them and in most cases (not all cases) they aren't THAT much better. Using the first example, it was clear at the time that Eichel was going to be a franchise 1C, and we knew then (and its been verified) that he's capable of winning a Cup (because he's already done it). So Edmonton COULD have walked away with a franchise 1C AND a top end scorer (Reinhart) without significantly hurting their Stanley Cup aspirations. Silly to me, but I'm a minority of one.

Edited December 18, 2024 by kipwinger

[mackel 758]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Is there a single Red Wings fan who would rather have Luke Hughes than Simon Edvinsson?

No, well no intelligent ones.

Edited December 18, 2024 by mackel

[LeftWinger 5,110]

What would you think about signing Marner?

What is Vancouver looking for? I'd like to get Hoglander into the organization.

[mackel 758]

What would an equivalent trade package from the Wings have been for Kakko?  The cost seems very reasonable and the reward could be great.  I think Yzerman is Uber conservative... and it's hurting us.

[LeftWinger 5,110]

We could've matched this. Geez!

 

We could've bettered it without losing someone too important! This is what I don't understand about Yzerman. Kakko and, earlier on, Liljegren, could've both come in and been better than what we have. And we could've matched both trades!

Edited February 3 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,742]

9 hours ago, mackel said:

What would an equivalent trade package from the Wings have been for Kakko?  The cost seems very reasonable and the reward could be great.  I think Yzerman is Uber conservative... and it's hurting us.

Puljujarvi 2.0

Hard pass.