Larkin & Bertuzzi Contract Watch? Red Wings TDL Discussion.

[Walman6million 250]

I guess my question is, would anyone accept this same return for Larkin?

Raty I would consider a blue chip prospect. Looking like he'll be a top6 winger soon. Similar value to a young Berggren I'd say. Beuavillier is a solid 25 year old middle 6 forward. Like the way he plays. Plays that responsible Trotz style. Similar in value to Fabbri I guess? Not overly talented, but solid hardworking winger. And then a a top 12 protected 1st.

I think I would take this deal - just barely. Instead of paying Larkin $9 mil for the next 8 years we get a solid prospect, roster piece, and probably end up drafting at like #7 and #15 (team will be bad after losing Larkin)

x2 high first rounders and an extra blue chipper coming in would be sweeeeeeeeeeeet. Under Holland I probably wouldn't take this, but Yzerman and Draper are beasts on the draft board.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Walman6million

[mackel 735]

1 hour ago, Walman6million said:

I guess my question is, would anyone accept this same return for Larkin?

Raty I would consider a blue chip prospect. Looking like he'll be a top6 winger soon. Similar value to a young Berggren I'd say. Beuavillier is a solid 25 year old middle 6 forward. Like the way he plays. Plays that responsible Trotz style. Similar in value to Fabbri I guess? Not overly talented, but solid hardworking winger. And then a a top 12 protected 1st.

I think I would take this deal - just barely. Instead of paying Larkin $9 mil for the next 8 years we get a solid prospect, roster piece, and probably end up drafting at like #7 and #15 (team will be bad after losing Larkin)

x2 high first rounders and an extra blue chipper coming in would be sweeeeeeeeeeeet. Under Holland I probably wouldn't take this, but Yzerman and Draper are beasts on the draft board.

I view this as an opportunity... no extension has been mentioned.  Hopefully we can get Larkin and Bo under contract.  Larkin, Horvat, Copp and Veleno down the middle is a strong C group.  In 2 years slide Copp down, Veleno to wing and Kasper on the 3rd line.  Very strong.  Not flashy bur DEEP!

[Walman6million 250]

32 minutes ago, mackel said:

I view this as an opportunity... no extension has been mentioned.  Hopefully we can get Larkin and Bo under contract.  Larkin, Horvat, Copp and Veleno down the middle is a strong C group.  In 2 years slide Copp down, Veleno to wing and Kasper on the 3rd line.  Very strong.  Not flashy bur DEEP!

See, IMO Larkin and Horvat down the middle is not a strong core down the middle. I think that's a very average mediocre center group that won't ever win s***. Sure it's better than what we have today, but with those two down the middle i suspect we never win a cup and draft later than we would without them.

f*** that s***. I like when the Wings pissed excellence. I DO NOT want to build an avaerage team. And I will ride with Yzerman until he acquires Elite centers, not just pretty good ones.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Walman6million

[mackel 735]

55 minutes ago, Walman6million said:

See, IMO Larkin and Horvat down the middle is not a strong core down the middle. I think that's a very average mediocre center group that won't ever win s***. Sure it's better than what we have today, but with those two down the middle i suspect we never win a cup and draft later than we would without them.

f*** that s***. I like when the Wings pissed excellence. I DO NOT want to build an avaerage team. And I will ride with Yzerman until he acquires Elite centers, not just pretty good ones.

That's obviously not what he's thinking or he'd have sold in the off-season to take a real shot at the top 3 centers in this draft.

He committed to moving forward can't go back now were past the PONR.

[Axl Foley 320]

1 hour ago, Walman6million said:

See, IMO Larkin and Horvat down the middle is not a strong core down the middle. I think that's a very average mediocre center group that won't ever win s***. Sure it's better than what we have today, but with those two down the middle i suspect we never win a cup and draft later than we would without them.

The Blackhawks won cups with Toews, Pirri, and Kruger down the middle.

Larkin, Horvat, Copp/Kasper would be better.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Axl Foley

[kipwinger 8,671]

11 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

The Blackhawks won cups with Toews, Pirri, and Kruger down the middle.

Larkin, Horvat, Copp/Kasper would be better.

I was gonna say something to this affect. I think you have to have good centers, but I think people confuse good centers with super offensive centers. Brayden Point and Anthony Cirelli is not an especially strong 1C/2C combination. Neither is Kopitar/Carter, O'Reilly/Schenn or Bergeron/Kreci. Of the last 10 or so Cup winners I'd say Crosby/Malkin, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, and McKinnon/Kadri were the strongest. Obviously the best current centers are McDavid, Draisaitl, and Nugent-Hopkins and they've got nothing to show for it so far. I don't think there's a blueprint to a Cup winning team, except that you have to have a ton of really good players. Chicago had elite defenders and wingers, and good but not elite centers and goaltending. Tampa has elite wingers and goaltending, but overall less good centers and defense. Pittsburgh had elite centers and goaltending and less good wingers and defense. St. Louis had nothing elite, but solid defense, centers, wingers, and goaltending. There's no recipe. The one thing all these teams have in common is that no part of their team was noticeably bad.

If Detroit has good but not elite centers and wingers (meaning top end 70-80 point guys with a few 50-60 point guys added in) and elite defense and goaltending in a few years I don't see why they couldn't win a Cup.

Edited January 31, 2023 by kipwinger

[redw1ngs 149]

12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I was gonna say something to this affect. I think you have to have good centers, but I think people confuse good centers with super offensive centers. Brayden Point and Anthony Cirelli is not an especially strong 1C/2C combination. Neither is Kopitar/Carter, O'Reilly/Schenn or Bergeron/Kreci. Of the last 10 or so Cup winners I'd say Crosby/Malkin and McKinnon/Kadri were the strongest. Obviously the best current centers are McDavid, Draisaitl, and Nugent-Hopkins and they've got nothing to show for it so far. I don't think there's a blueprint to a Cup winning team, except that you have to have a ton of really good players. Chicago had elite defenders and wingers, and good but not elite centers and goaltending. Tampa has elite wingers and goaltending, but overall less good centers and defense. Pittsburgh had elite centers and goaltending and less good wingers and defense. St. Louis had nothing elite, but solid defense, centers, wingers, and goaltending. There's no recipe. The one thing all these teams have in common is that no part of their team was noticeably bad.

If Detroit has good but not elite centers and wingers (meaning top end 70-80 point guys with a few 50-60 point guys added in) and elite defense and goaltending in a few years I don't see why they couldn't win a Cup.

I was going to say something along the same lines. Larkin and Horvat can be 70-80pt centers thats a real good 1-2 punch imo. 

[kipwinger 8,671]

Just now, redw1ngs said:

I was going to say something along the same lines. Larkin and Horvat can be 70-80pt centers thats a real good 1-2 punch imo. 

I'm looking back through all the Stanley Cup teams since 2010 right now and there are some REALLY unimpressive center combinations. Bergeron and Krejci had 57 and 62 points respectively in 2011. Toews and Madden in 2010: 68 and 23 points. Kopitar and Richards in 2012: 76 and 44 points. The list could go on. But I think it's safe to say two things, A) well rounded centers win just as often as high productive centers do, and B) Larkin/Horvat wouldn't even be in the bottom five worst center combos to have won since then.

[redw1ngs 149]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm looking back through all the Stanley Cup teams since 2010 right now and there are some REALLY unimpressive center combinations. Bergeron and Krejci had 57 and 62 points respectively in 2011. Toews and Madden in 2010: 68 and 23 points. Kopitar and Richards in 2012: 76 and 44 points. The list could go on. But I think it's safe to say two things, A) well rounded centers win just as often as high productive centers do, and B) Larkin/Horvat wouldn't even be in the bottom five worst center combos to have won since then.

If we sign Horvat worst case pts-wise assuming health would be Larkin/Horvat-150pts imo. Itll be interesting to see what SY does before the tdl and offseason. We have some good players on the team and in the system but we could still use another elite player or 2 whether thats thru free agency trade or draft.

[kipwinger 8,671]

Just now, redw1ngs said:

If we sign Horvat worst case pts-wise assuming health would be Larkin/Horvat-150pts imo. Itll be interesting to see what SY does before the tdl and offseason. We have some good players on the team and in the system but we could still use another elite player or 2 whether thats thru free agency trade or draft.

Like I said, there's a way to help ourselves now and in the future. I think we need to do everything we can to move up and land an elite talent in the draft. But I'd only look to free agency for Horvat and the two holes in the roster I have listed below. The long term success of this team isn't dependent on whether we go big game hunting. It's dependent on what Seider, Edvinsson, Raymond, Berggren, Kasper, etc. develop into. I don't have any problem whatsoever going into next season with this:

 

Ras-Larkin-Raymond

Berggren-Horvat-Kubalik

Perron-Copp-Vrana

Sodorblom-Veleno-Fabbri

 

Walman-Seider

Edvinsson-Hronek

Chiarot-???

 

Jusso

???

The above roster should be Wildcard competitive, assuming continued growth from the young guys and a full season of Horvat, Vrana, and Fabbri. AND you've still got really good players like Wallinder, Kasper, Hanas, Johansson, and others (Mazur, Buium, and Lombardi will be with GR) developing in the minors without having to rush them.

[Axl Foley 320]

You can win with a 70 point center as long as your 2 wingers are popping in 60 or more goals combined. Is Raymond/Bert or Vrana/Perron/Kubalik gonna get you there? I don't think so. 

 

If only Zadina and Vrana were the 30 goal guys we had hoped for.

[marcaractac 3,963]

8 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

You can win with a 70 point center as long as your 2 wingers are popping in 60 or more goals combined. Is Raymond/Bert or Vrana/Perron/Kubalik gonna get you there? I don't think so. 

 

If only Zadina and Vrana were the 30 goal guys we had hoped for.

It also helps when one of your 70-point centers is a defensive beast like Bergeron or ROR. Larkin is good, but he is not on that level. 

[Walman6million 250]

I dont think you have to have elite centers necessarily (though that is my prefered combo). But Larkin and Horvat are not elite IMO... and we also dont have elite wingers... or elite defenders (yet)... or elite goal tending. 

SY just loaded us with vet mentors. Id rather go for high draft picks.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

we suck, eh?  at least we arent lazy.

[Walman6million 250]

TDL:

1. Trade Larkin for 1st + young middle 6 center + A grade RHD prospect
2. Trade Bertuzzi for 1st
3. Trade Maata for 3rd
4. Trade Erne for 4th
5. Recall Vrana + Soderblom

Fabbri - Copp - Raymond
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Perron
Vrana - Middle 6 center - Berggren
Soderblom - Veleno - Sundqvist
Suter

Walman - Seider
Chiarot - Hronek
Oesterle - Lindstrom
Hagg

Husso
Hellberg

That team won't be totally humiliating, but will greatly accelerate our race to the bottom of the standings (good thing)

Draft:

1. Use our extra 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to move around the draft as needed
2. Draft at minimum x2 new grade A prospects

Future core now has Seider + Edvinsson + Kasper + Raymond + Cossa + x3 new grade A prospects with them (x2 drafted, x1 acquired in Larkin trade) + plenty of great young B level support players/prospects

UFA:

1. Release Suter, Oesterle, Hagg, Pysyk, and Hellberg
2. Re-sign our RFAs (Lindstrom & Veleno), Sundqvist to a similar contract, and Ned to a basement contract
3. Recall Kasper and Edvinsson, and our grade A prospect from the Larkin trade
4. We now have roughly $25-30 million in cap space to spend on UFAs

5. Sign C Bo Horvat $8 x 7
6. Sign D Dimitri Orlov $6 x 3
7. Sign G Joonas Korpisalo $3 x 2
8. $13-8 million remaining in cap space

Vrana - Horvat - Raymond
Rasmussen - Copp - Perron
Fabbri - Middle 6 center - Berggren
Sundqvist - Veleno - Kubalik
Soderblom/Kasper

Orlov - Seider
Walman - Hronek
Chiarot - Lindstrom
Edvinsson/Grade A RHD prospect

Husso
Korpisalo

Does this 2023/24 team achieve better results than this this year? I'd say similar or better. The goal is improved. The defense in improved. All our young players are 1 year better, with quite a few good young players joining the team as well. And we're cap flexible, with our cup boards even more stocked with good prospects.

It's a ticking time bomb b4 Seider/Edvinsson/Raymond/Kasper and our other newly other acquired grade A prospects simply take over and dominate. I want to stuff this team so full of young talent that it bursts into the playoffs (while adding select vets like Perron/Chiarot/Horvat/Orlov along the way to teach stuff) but we might have to wait another 2-3 seasons for this climax event.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Walman6million

[Axl Foley 320]

3 minutes ago, Walman6million said:

TDL:

1. Trade Larkin for 1st + young middle 6 center + A grade RHD prospect
2. Trade Bertuzzi for 1st
3. Trade Maata for 3rd
4. Trade Erne for 4th
5. Recall Vrana + Soderblom

Fabbri - Copp - Raymond
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Perron
Vrana - Middle 6 center - Berggren
Soderblom - Veleno - Sundqvist
Suter

Walman - Seider
Chiarot - Hronek
Oesterle - Lindstrom
Hagg

Husso
Hellberg

That team won't be totally humiliating, but will greatly accelerate our race to the bottom of the standings (good thing)

Draft:

1. Use our extra 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to move around the draft as needed
2. Draft at minimum x2 new grade A prospects

Future core now has Seider + Edvinsson + Kasper + Raymond + Cossa + x3 new grade A prospects with them (x2 drafted, x1 acquired in Larkin trade) + plenty of great young B level support players/prospects

UFA:

1. Release Suter, Oesterle, Hagg, Pysyk, and Hellberg
2. Re-sign our RFAs (Lindstrom & Veleno), Sundqvist to a similar contract, and Ned to a basement contract
3. Recall Kasper and Edvinsson, and our grade A prospect from the Larkin trade
4. We now have roughly $25-30 million in cap space to spend on UFAs

5. Sign C Bo Horvat $8 x 7
6. Sign D Dimitri Orlov $6 x 3
7. Sign G Joonas Korpisalo $3 x 2
8. $13-8 million remaining in cap space

Vrana - Horvat - Raymond
Rasmussen - Copp - Perron
Fabbri - Middle 6 center - Berggren
Sundqvist - Veleno - Kubalik
Soderblom/Kasper

Orlov - Seider
Walman - Hronek
Chiarot - Lindstrom
Edvinsson/Grade A RHD prospect

Husso
Korpisalo

Does this 2023/24 team achieve better results than this this year? I'd say similar or better. The goal is improved. The defense in improved. All our young players are 1 year better, with quite a few good young players joining the team as well. And we're cap flexible, with our cup boards even more stocked with good prospects.

It's a ticking time bomb b4 Seider/Edvinsson/Raymond/Kasper and our other newly other acquired grade A prospects simply take over and dominate. I want to stuff this team so full of young talent that bursts into the playoffs (while adding select vets like Perron/Chiarot/Horvat/Orlov along the way to teach stuff)

So you want to trade Larkin for redundancy in middle 6 forwards and RD?

[Walman6million 250]

6 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

So you want to trade Larkin for redundancy in middle 6 forwards and RD?

A RHD prospect similar to Edvinsson/Seider and a 1st yea

[marcaractac 3,963]

Larkin will be a Bruin next season. You heard it here first.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

58 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Larkin will be a Bruin next season. You heard it here first.

interesting take.  i think his deql gets done by end of next week.  8 x 8.75.

[diehardredwingsfan58 157]

21 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Larkin will be a Bruin next season. You heard it here first.

I'll bet you you're wrong, There's absolutely noway Boston can afford Larkin. They've around $21,000,000 to spend and Pastrnak will cost them between $11,000,000 to $12,000,000 per plus they've $4,500,000 performance bonuses that need to be paid out to both Bergeron and Krejci and they need to sign 7 players. No way are they going to afford Larkin. If i'm Larkin i don't take anything less than $10,000,000 per to play there.

FYI Boston has the oldest core in the league average 30 on their forward core 28 on defense. They need to get younger not older. Once Bergeron, Krejci and Marchand are gone that team will be tanking. Larkin would be a fool to leave a young up and coming Red Wings team for an aging Bruins team who's window is closing fast.

 

[Walman6million 250]

So Lebrun reporting that Wings orig offer was 8 and Larkin wanted 9. And theyve made progress to 8.2 and 8.9. And Friedman is saying Detroit is now at their line. 

Looking like the deal will get done, but idk that Larkin gets north of 8.3

[diehardredwingsfan58 157]

1 hour ago, Walman6million said:

So Lebrun reporting that Wings orig offer was 8 and Larkin wanted 9. And theyve made progress to 8.2 and 8.9. And Friedman is saying Detroit is now at their line. 

Looking like the deal will get done, but idk that Larkin gets north of 8.3

Larkins comparables are Hertl and Hintz Doubt Yzerman goes much above them.

[Axl Foley 320]

Does SY have the advantage of being able to go 8 years?

[LeftWinger 5,065]

Well Horvat just got 8x$8.5M, what does this mean for Larkin?

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1622327301219164160?t=jIhugq3dLL6aE2-gG0bLoA&s=19

Edited February 5, 2023 by LeftWinger

[Axl Foley 320]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Well Horvat just got 8x$8.5M, what does this mean for Larkin?

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1622327301219164160?t=jIhugq3dLL6aE2-gG0bLoA&s=19

Horvat is a year older and is a career 0.66 P/GP. Larkin is a career 0.73. I suspect this puts Larkin fairly in the 9 mil range.