2021 Off-Season (Too Soon?)

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Completely disagree. A 1C's job is to generate points - a lot of points - and also to do that while dealing with often the toughest matchup trying to shut u down. If larks cant handle that responsibility hes not a true 1C.

 

1. Wrong. Neither Z or Datsyuk's only job was to score points. Neither was Feds or Yzerman's for that matter. All 4 were capable of putting up monster offensive numbers, yet they were all expected to sacrifice scoring to play a 2way game. Just like Larkin. And they also had way better wingers to play with. Unlike Larkin.

7 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Furthermore we've watched Larkins linemates excel and grow. Bertuzzi, Mantha (except this season) Fabbri, Zadina, and now Vrana. Yet Larkin regresses while they develop. So your theory about its just his weak ass linemates, isnt at all true.

2. Wrong again. If Larkin was regressing, than how could his linemates improve? Because Larkin has had to adapt his game to focus more on defense and 2way play. That's why HIS offensive numbers have dropped while his linemates numbers have improved. They can focus more on scoring while Larkin covers.

7 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Larkin is an impressively fast, defensively capable, top 6 center. He does not possess the play making ability to ever be a true backbone 1C in this league. 

 

3. No one is saying otherwise. He is not your prototypical 1C. But if a player has to meet your rigid standards to be one, than there are a lot of 1C's who don't deserve that title besides Larkin.

6 hours ago, Gniwder said:

The moment you find urself making excuses for players you should ask yourself "why the f*** am i doing this?" "Am i being a slappy fan boy?"

It's not fanboy excuses. It's an understanding of Larkin's ability and his specific circumstances. Something you refuse to do, because all you look at is scoring and don't consider anything else.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Gniwder 168]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

1. Wrong. Neither Z or Datsyuk's only job was to score points. Neither was Feds or Yzerman's for that matter. All 4 were capable of putting up monster offensive numbers, yet they were all expected to sacrifice scoring to play a 2way game. Just like Larkin. And they also had way better wingers to play with. Unlike Larkin.

We needed a new KR. Bless u sir.

1. Never said it was the only job of a 1C. Nice strawman. A 1Cs job is essentially everying and anything, but they absolutely have to produce points and scoring chances. Probably more so than any other player on the team. Larkin is entirely mediocre at that, which is why hes not a 1C on a good team. 

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

2. Wrong again. If Larkin was regressing, than how could his linemates improve? Because Larkin has had to adapt his game to focus more on defense and 2way play. That's why HIS offensive numbers have dropped while his linemates numbers have improved. They can focus more on scoring while Larkin covers.

Larkins linemates improved their scoring because theyre good young players that are progressing their game. Larkin should be benefiting from that increased production. But you seem to think larkin stays at the blue line and watches them play offense to cover for them? Am i interpreting your notion correctly? 

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

3. No one is saying otherwise. He is not your prototypical 1C. But if a player has to meet your rigid standards to be one, than there are a lot of 1C's who don't deserve that title besides Larkin.

Funny way of saying hes not a 1C

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

It's not fanboy excuses. It's an understanding of Larkin's ability and his specific circumstances. Something you refuse to do, because all you look at is scoring and don't consider anything else.

More straw men

I openly admit Larkin is strong defensive player and fast skater. I guess that means i only look at the numbers to you?

I encourage you to talk to other fans and escape the fanboy bubble for a moment. No one thinks this highly of Larkin besides circle jerking detroit fans. Its cringey and embarassing the excuses made for this kid. And im not even claiming hes a bust or something. And furthermore, just watch him play. I dont claim to be a scout but theres absolutely nothing impressive about his offensive game. He can skate and hold on to the puck. After that hes entirely average. Defend your boy. Ill be here still when hes still scoring at a 2C level with vrana and raymond around him 

[Gniwder 168]

5 hours ago, Dabura said:

I guess I'm just not understanding why we need to be having hard conversations about Larkin at this time.

Would I like to have a 1C who's significantly better than Larkin? Sure. Do I have a foolproof plan for acquiring that player? Nope.

I'm assuming we're not getting that player. And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing. If we can instead simply find a centerman who's about as good as Larkin overall but maybe more of a natural scorer, that could be enough.

Its bc of Seider and larkins captaincy staus.

Itll be the emerging debate throughout the year.

Seider is a total package. Skill, physicality, attitude, charisma. Future HOFer.

Larkin is boring and a good defensive 2C. But hes from Michigan...

The praise for Seider is going to grow rapidly within the Red Wings, within the league, and abroad (best German player of all time)

The biggest mistake i think Yzerguy ever made was naming larkin captain. Seider is literally going to outshine Larkin to the point he needs to be stripped or traded. 

Just wait. I havent been wrong about this kid yet. 

[Dabura 12,228]

Just now, Gniwder said:

Its bc of Seider and larkins captaincy staus.

Itll be the emerging debate throughout the year.

Seider is a total package. Skill, physicality, attitude, charisma. Future HOFer.

Larkin is boring and a good defensive 2C. But hes from Michigan...

The praise for Seider is going to grow rapidly within the Red Wings, within the league, and abroad (best German player of all time)

The biggest mistake i think Yzerguy ever made was naming larkin captain. Seider is literally going to outshine Larkin to the point he needs to be stripped or traded. 

Just wait. I havent been wrong about this kid yet. 

Seider will be the Val Kilmer Doc Holliday to Larkin's Kurt Russell Wyatt Earp; everyone will openly agree that Seider is the real MVP, and with everyone in agreement on that, there won't be any drama. Tombstone is a solid movie, even with the main protagonist being thoroughly upstaged by a supporting character.

What *will* piss people off is if Seider performs well enough to win the Calder but gets snubbed like Kilmer got snubbed by the Oscars people. But even then, that wouldn't lead to infighting within Wings World. Quite the opposite. We'd be reminded that the world hates the Red Wings and their fans. We'd be reminded that it's us versus the world.

 

[Dabura 12,228]

Anyway...

How 'bout those Habs? Completed the sweep against the Jets. Headed to the conference finals.

They're doing what they're doing with a center group of Phillip Danault, Nick Suzuki, Jesperi Kotkaniemi, and Eric Staal.

Danault is basically being used as a sacrificial human shield for Suzuki and Kotkaniemi. And it's working. No production from Danault, sure, but Suzuki and Kotkaniemi are scoring lots and the other teams' top players haven't been scoring lots.

The Habs' winger group? Nothing special.

Their blue line? Nothing special.

Their goaltending? Well, ok, it does help to have a Carey Price in net. But my point stands.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

6 hours ago, Dabura said:

Anyway...

How 'bout those Habs? Completed the sweep against the Jets. Headed to the conference finals.

They're doing what they're doing with a center group of Phillip Danault, Nick Suzuki, Jesperi Kotkaniemi, and Eric Staal.

Danault is basically being used as a sacrificial human shield for Suzuki and Kotkaniemi. And it's working. No production from Danault, sure, but Suzuki and Kotkaniemi are scoring lots and the other teams' top players haven't been scoring lots.

The Habs' winger group? Nothing special.

Their blue line? Nothing special.

Their goaltending? Well, ok, it does help to have a Carey Price in net. But my point stands.

While the Habs deserve full marks for what they've accomplished, no one should ever try to assemble a team like this Montreal one. Unless you're happy with one final four appearance every 15 years or something and no cups./

This is a once in a lifetime run for ANY team. Wouldn't surprise me if they miss the playoffs next year. 

[kipwinger 8,732]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

While the Habs deserve full marks for what they've accomplished, no one should ever try to assemble a team like this Montreal one. Unless you're happy with one final four appearance every 15 years or something and no cups./

This is a once in a lifetime run for ANY team. Wouldn't surprise me if they miss the playoffs next year. 

Montreal's success is a product of how bad the Canadian Division really is. I'll always be indebted to them for beating Toronto (the takes alone were worth it), but I'd never confuse them with an actually good team. They'll get smashed by Colorado/Vegas.

[Dabura 12,228]

4 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

While the Habs deserve full marks for what they've accomplished, no one should ever try to assemble a team like this Montreal one. Unless you're happy with one final four appearance every 15 years or something and no cups./

This is a once in a lifetime run for ANY team. Wouldn't surprise me if they miss the playoffs next year. 

I'm not saying you should actively try to assemble a team like this Habs team. I'm saying McDavid and Matthews are golfing.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

20 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I'm not saying you should actively try to assemble a team like this Habs team. I'm saying McDavid and Matthews are golfing.

And I'm saying I don't want to suck for the next 30 years with a few  fell-just-short playoff miracles sprinkled in here and there. I'd like a to follow a more sustainable model. Meaning star players, particularly at center and on D. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by The 91 of Ryans

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

11 hours ago, Gniwder said:

We needed a new KR. Bless u sir.

1. Never said it was the only job of a 1C. Nice strawman. A 1Cs job is essentially everying and anything, but they absolutely have to produce points and scoring chances. Probably more so than any other player on the team. Larkin is entirely mediocre at that, which is why hes not a 1C on a good team. 

Larkins linemates improved their scoring because theyre good young players that are progressing their game. Larkin should be benefiting from that increased production. But you seem to think larkin stays at the blue line and watches them play offense to cover for them? Am i interpreting your notion correctly? 

Funny way of saying hes not a 1C

More straw men

I openly admit Larkin is strong defensive player and fast skater. I guess that means i only look at the numbers to you?

I encourage you to talk to other fans and escape the fanboy bubble for a moment. No one thinks this highly of Larkin besides circle jerking detroit fans. Its cringey and embarassing the excuses made for this kid. And im not even claiming hes a bust or something. And furthermore, just watch him play. I dont claim to be a scout but theres absolutely nothing impressive about his offensive game. He can skate and hold on to the puck. After that hes entirely average. Defend your boy. Ill be here still when hes still scoring at a 2C level with vrana and raymond around him 

1. Yes. His job is everything and anything. And when a 1C sacrifices offense to play a more rounded game his points drop. We have seen this before. His own GM did it. When that happens, he doesn't stop being a 1C.

2. You don't have to hang at the blue line to be focused on defense. If you think his linemates offense going up has nothing to do with Larkin's play, then I don't know what to tell you.

3. There are different styles, talent levels, and mind sets for being a 1C. They don't have to be a McDavid or Matthews (see Datsyuk, Pavel)

4. True. But you seem to think that points is what makes him a 1C or not.

5. Calling Larkin a poor man's 1C is thinking "highly" of him? Ok. I didn't realize that a balanced viewpoint makes someone a circle jerking fanboy.

[Rivalred 630]

Too much too soon 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PxFi5ta6g7Y

 

[Dabura 12,228]

12 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

And I'm saying I don't want to suck for the next 30 years with a few  fell-just-short playoff miracles sprinkled in here and there. I'd like a to follow a more sustainable model. Meaning star players, particularly at center and on D. 

Yeah yeah yeah, I get that. We all get that. We're all on the same page. Lots of star players = good. Getting lots of star players = the plan.

What I'm trying to get you folks to start thinking about is the very real possibility that we're not going to win any draft lottos and will have to settle for a Wings team that isn't particularly sexy on paper but still has the potential to win a Cup or two.

[AtlantaHotWings 1,110]

13 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Its bc of Seider and larkins captaincy staus.

Itll be the emerging debate throughout the year.

Seider is a total package. Skill, physicality, attitude, charisma. Future HOFer.

Larkin is boring and a good defensive 2C. But hes from Michigan...

The praise for Seider is going to grow rapidly within the Red Wings, within the league, and abroad (best German player of all time)

The biggest mistake i think Yzerguy ever made was naming larkin captain. Seider is literally going to outshine Larkin to the point he needs to be stripped or traded. 

Just wait. I havent been wrong about this kid yet. 

Imagine if Seider was from Frankenmuth!!!! 

[AtlantaHotWings 1,110]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Yeah yeah yeah, I get that. We all get that. We're all on the same page. Lots of star players = good. Getting lots of star players = the plan.

What I'm trying to get you folks to start thinking about is the very real possibility that we're not going to win any draft lottos and will have to settle for a Wings team that isn't particularly sexy on paper but still has the potential to win a Cup or two.

Based on the thought above. Sooo we need a coach with a system that allows our hard working less talented team win? I am good with that mindset kind of goes back to the blue collar grab your lunchbox and work mentality of Michigan...

I am enjoying watching the Habs run. It seems they are running a great system and busting their collective nuts every shift.  Curious what happens next for them

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Yeah yeah yeah, I get that. We all get that. We're all on the same page. Lots of star players = good. Getting lots of star players = the plan.

What I'm trying to get you folks to start thinking about is the very real possibility that we're not going to win any draft lottos and will have to settle for a Wings team that isn't particularly sexy on paper but still has the potential to win a Cup or two.

We're more likely to see a team built similar to the Blues Cup team unless we manage to draft some Datsyuks, Zetterbergs, and Lidstroms. Not likely.

5 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Based on the thought above. Sooo we need a coach with a system that allows our hard working less talented team win? I am good with that mindset kind of goes back to the blue collar grab your lunchbox and work mentality of Michigan...

I am enjoying watching the Habs run. It seems they are running a great system and busting their collective nuts every shift.  Curious what happens next for them

Yeah. Not the kind of team you try to build, but the kind of team you can still win with if you have to.

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/octopusthrower.com/2021/06/08/red-wings-buffalo-sabres-trade/amp/

 

I only like Dahlin on this team, and I'd guess he's off the table.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/octopusthrower.com/2021/06/08/red-wings-buffalo-sabres-trade/amp/

 

I only like Dahlin on this team, and I'd guess he's off the table.

"Yzerman identified the core as being Dylan Larkin, Jakub Vrana, and Tyler Bertuzzi and set the bar at “26 or younger” when it came to the players he would deal for."

Interesting that Yzerman would refer to a 2C as part of his "core".

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

"Yzerman identified the core as being Dylan Larkin, Jakub Vrana, and Tyler Bertuzzi and set the bar at “26 or younger” when it came to the players he would deal for."

Interesting that Yzerman would refer to a 2C as part of his "core".

Core pieces to move to build a much better longer future for the team

[Dabura 12,228]

9 hours ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Based on the thought above. Sooo we need a coach with a system that allows our hard working less talented team win? I am good with that mindset kind of goes back to the blue collar grab your lunchbox and work mentality of Michigan...

I am enjoying watching the Habs run. It seems they are running a great system and busting their collective nuts every shift.  Curious what happens next for them

I mean, no one should be ruling out the possibility that we do in fact end up with some legit star power. We might already have a future Norris winner in Seider. Certainly Raymond has star potential. We'll be getting a good player with our top pick in the upcoming draft. And we'll likely be getting a good player with our first pick in next year's draft.

So there's reason to be hopeful. I'm not trying to hate on anyone for being hopeful. Not at all. I'm hopeful.

...But, yeah, I'd be lying if I said my expectations haven't begun to shift. I'm starting to embrace what you're talking about. The blue-collar mentality. The underdog ethos. Lean and mean. Forged in the crucible that is Not Having Superstar Talent to Lean on and Hide Behind.

Ideally, we have the superstar talent *PLUS* the blue-collar attitude. But "ideally" rarely lines up with reality.

8 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

We're more likely to see a team built similar to the Blues Cup team unless we manage to draft some Datsyuks, Zetterbergs, and Lidstroms. Not likely.

Right. That Blues team, or your standard Preds team, or these Knights teams, or these Trotz Isles teams, or these Slavin-Hamilton 'canes teams...

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah. Not the kind of team you try to build, but the kind of team you can still win with if you have to.

Exactly. Well said.

It's not the kind of team you draw up when your organization embarks on a rebuild, but it's the kind of team you're likely going to get. And that's ok!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 6/7/2021 at 2:17 PM, Gniwder said:

Completely disagree. A 1C's job is to generate points - a lot of points - and also to do that while dealing with often the toughest matchup trying to shut u down. If larks cant handle that responsibility hes not a true 1C.

Furthermore we've watched Larkins linemates excel and grow. Bertuzzi, Mantha (except this season) Fabbri, Zadina, and now Vrana. Yet Larkin regresses while they develop. So your theory about its just his weak ass linemates, isnt at all true. 

Larkin is an impressively fast, defensively capable, top 6 center. He does not possess the play making ability to ever be a true backbone 1C in this league. 

 

Since you like the points per game stat so much:

Larkin's career Points per Game average is .67 according to NHL.com. He scores 2 points in every 3 games he plays. Think that's not a 1C pace?

You know who else has the same PPG Avg (according to NHL.com) as Larkin over the same 6 years Larkin has been in the league? Bo Horvat. Ryan Johansen. But those guys aren't 1C's either, right? 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

"Yzerman identified the core as being Dylan Larkin, Jakub Vrana, and Tyler Bertuzzi and set the bar at “26 or younger” when it came to the players he would deal for."

Interesting that Yzerman would refer to a 2C as part of his "core".

You're quoting an article that didn't actually quote Yzerman saying this. I'd be surprised if he said this exact thing to be honest. 

[kipwinger 8,732]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You're quoting an article that didn't actually quote Yzerman saying this. I'd be surprised if he said this exact thing to be honest. 

I almost pointed this out last night too.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You're quoting an article that didn't actually quote Yzerman saying this. I'd be surprised if he said this exact thing to be honest. 

Either SY identified his core or the article is full of s**t. Of course he didn't say it exactly that way, or it would have been in quotation marks. I doubt the writer is just pulling it out of his ass. Most likely, Yzerman made comments eluding to the players mentioned who represent his core. Hes not going to come right out and say this, but he would obviously have players in mind he wants to build around. An astute person can figure out who those players are.

1 hour ago, BarkBurgerman said:

From 2015/16 to now, among centers who played 300 games or more, Larkin is tied for rank 40-42 in PPG with Mikael Granlund and Bo Horvat.

Again proving he scores a 2C rate.

Thanks.

1. A 1C plays defense and scores at a 1C rate. Yzerman did this. Larkin does not do this.

2. Larkin's linemates scoring more helps him

3. Pavel Datsyuk was a 1C

4. Point are a big part of being a 1C. It's why Glendening - despite his defense - will never be a top6 forward.

5. Constantly manufacturing excuses for a player makes u look like a fan boy with homer bias yea

You never answered the question. Is a 0.67 PPG center a 1C or not?

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

25 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Either SY identified his core or the article is full of s**t. Of course he didn't say it exactly that way, or it would have been in quotation marks. I doubt the writer is just pulling it out of his ass. Most likely, Yzerman made comments eluding to the players mentioned who represent his core. Hes not going to come right out and say this, but he would obviously have players in mind he wants to build around. An astute person can figure out who those players are.

You never answered the question. Is a 0.67 PPG center a 1C or not?

Actually, the article did spin Yzerman's press quote a bit. Yzerman referred to Bertuzzi, Larkin, and Vrana as "guys that might be here in 4 or 5 years" 

This hardly identifies them as a "core" and he didn't use that word at all. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Actually, the article did spin Yzerman's press quote a bit. Yzerman referred to Bertuzzi, Larkin, and Vrana as "guys that might be here in 4 or 5 years" 

This hardly identifies them as a "core" and he didn't use that word at all. 

Yzerman referred to Larkin as a core player the day he was announced as GM.

Since then he has named Larkin team captain of the Detroit Red Wings. An honor that Yzerman understands and wouldnt just hand it out to a kid he didn't see as part of his future. 

Multiple outlets have used the term "untouchable" when it comes to Larkin. Doubt SY ever used that exact term either. But it's no secret that he values Larkin more than many fans do.