2021 Draft

[F.Michael 4,590]

17 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Okay. I see what ur saying. My argument would be that the HOF has it right when it comes to goalies, but is far too generous when it comes to skaters.

Too many guys get in that shouldn't. Of your group, I think Sundin should be, but not Dino or Andreychuk. Just my opinion.

Fedorov and Bure? Of course. Mogilny? Not so sure. And if you have to think about it, they shouldn't be there.

As much as I love Ozzie, I just don't think he belongs. When it comes to his generation, Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Belfour...yes. But I wouldn't put Ozzie at that talent level.

Agreed here - looking at their contemporaries  - Ozzie seems to be in a group that was exceptional  Brodeur/Roy/Hasek/Belfour...If the same standard applied to skaters - well then how would Ciccerelli/Andreychuk match up against Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman? 

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think there’s a bias in favor of flashy players, whether skaters or goalies. And so guys who aren’t flashy will never get any love relative to their flashier counterparts. Hence why Orr is considered better than Lids despite never playing defense ever. But you’re as good as your results say you are. And Ozzy, Dino, Sundin, and Andreychuk constantly delivered at the same levels as they’re flashier counterparts. Ozzy’s results are in line with his peers, and his playoff performances were frequently better. 
 

Now, one might argue that it’s not the Hall of Hockey Effectiveness. So maybe being a dull player SHOULD get you excluded, but then that means you need to kick out Brodeur and add Alex Kovalev and other such things

Many tend to agree had Ozzie won the Conn Smythe in 2008 - or had the Wings won the Cup in 2009 - he'd likely be considered HoF worthy.

[kipwinger 8,675]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed here - looking at their contemporaries  - Ozzie seems to be in a group that was exceptional  Brodeur/Roy/Hasek/Belfour...If the same standard applied to skaters - well then how would Ciccerelli/Andreychuk match up against Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman? 

Many tend to agree had Ozzie won the Conn Smythe in 2008 - or had the Wings won the Cup in 2009 - he'd likely be considered HoF worthy.

There’s always some excuse to exclude him that nobody applies to other HoF worthy players. Nobody seems to want to exclude Yzerman from the HoF just because he was never better than Gretzky. Brendan Shanahan never won any individual hardware. Patrick Roy never played behind anything but a great team. Dynasty teams dragged Fuhr and Billy Smith to multiple Cup wins. Yet all of them get the benefit of the doubt. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by kipwinger

[F.Michael 4,590]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

There’s always some excuse to exclude him that nobody applies to other HoF worthy players. Nobody seems to want to exclude Yzerman from the HoF just because he was never better than Gretzky. Brendan Shanahan never won any individual hardware. Patrick Roy never played behind anything but a great team. Dynasty teams dragged Fuhr and Billy Smith to multiple Cup wins. Yet all of them get the benefit of the doubt. 

Agreed.

Interesting though - there's  a 10 yr gap ('93 Billy Smith  '03 Grant Fuhr) where there was not a goalie inducted...Then of course there was a bunch...

1993	Billy Smith	G	Canada
2003	Grant Fuhr	G	Canada
2006	Patrick Roy	G	Canada
2011	Ed Belfour	G	Canada
2014	Dominik Hašek	G	Czech Republic/ Czechoslovakia
2016	Rogie Vachon	G	Canada
2018	Martin Brodeur	G	Canada

[kipwinger 8,675]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed.

Interesting though - there's  a 10 yr gap ('93 Billy Smith  '03 Grant Fuhr) where there was not a goalie inducted...Then of course there was a bunch...

1993	Billy Smith	G	Canada
2003	Grant Fuhr	G	Canada
2006	Patrick Roy	G	Canada
2011	Ed Belfour	G	Canada
2014	Dominik Hašek	G	Czech Republic/ Czechoslovakia
2016	Rogie Vachon	G	Canada
2018	Martin Brodeur	G	Canada

Mind blowing that Belfour is in and people are debating Ozzie

Edited July 1, 2021 by kipwinger

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Mind blowing that Balfour is in and people are debating Ozzie

Must've bribed the HoF committee with $1 million...

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

53 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Who are these always good ones available in free agency you speak of? I know your thinking bernier but ya no

mike smith?james reimer? Better yet bobrovsky? Is that the one we could get so easily at 10 per and been like thank god we waited for him . Lehner and all his issues? Talbot?

Sure we can get guys to split duties but we’ll never get a true #1 game changing guy in free agency and we dont have a superstar lineup like we had in the past to support so so goaltending and Probably never will again

 

 

2020: Markstrom, Talbot, Holtby

2019: Varlamov, Lehner, Talbot (Fleury would have been if not for the expansion draft and re-sign by Vegas)

2018: Halak, Lehner

2017: Ryan Miller

Generational goalies are not available in free agency, I agree. Even elite ones are hard to come by unless you trade for them. But good, solid goaltenders, who can still backstop a Cup team are available every year in free agency.

 

[F.Michael 4,590]

2 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Sure those are all okay goalies. Fleury is obvi heads above the rest.

I think Hookers logic is there's literally no skater that anyone is excited about this year... so why not draft the goalie and just shore up that position for the next 10-15 years? Not like he's a reach, he's ranked right at our position for the most part and has pretty decent hype out of Sweden.

Must agree here...Funny if Wally goes #3 thru #5...Likely would free up someone like Edvinsson/Hughes for us to take.

[F.Michael 4,590]

Just now, BarkBurgerman said:

Nobody seems to know diddly about this draft. Wallnut going 1st overall or slipping to the 2nd round... neither would surprise me.

yup

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

30 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Mind blowing that Belfour is in and people are debating Ozzie

Belfour: 484 wins, 2.50 GAA, .906 S%, 2 Vezinas, 4 Jennings, Calder, Stanley Cup

Osgood: 401 wins, 2.49 GAA, .905 S%, 0 Vezinas, 2 Jennings, No Calder, 3 Stanley Cups

Both played 18 seasons, but Belfour played in more than 200 games more than Osgood, totalling almost 1000. That's insane. Only 4 goalies in NHL history have played more: Brodeur, Luongo, Roy, and Sawchuk. You have to be pretty friggin good to start that many games.

In terms of individual stats, Belfour and Ozzie are mirror images. But when you factor in wins and individual awards, Belfour has a decided advantage. That is the difference between getting in the HoF and not. It isn't much, but I agree with the voters on this one.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 minute ago, BarkBurgerman said:

I assume you agree with me that folks who get all jacked up about Bernier are ******* slow, no?

OMG we got a basic level Howard replacement, watch me bend over sideways and clap for a completely average ******* goalie. It's like being a fan of Red Wings Bobby Ryan. Sure he's still decent. But it's a stop gap replacement guys at best come on. This is nothing to invest your future in.

 

Who is saying otherwise?

[kipwinger 8,675]

15 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Belfour: 484 wins, 2.50 GAA, .906 S%, 2 Vezinas, 4 Jennings, Calder, Stanley Cup

Osgood: 401 wins, 2.49 GAA, .905 S%, 0 Vezinas, 2 Jennings, No Calder, 3 Stanley Cups

Both played 18 seasons, but Belfour played in more than 200 games more than Osgood, totalling almost 1000. That's insane. Only 4 goalies in NHL history have played more: Brodeur, Luongo, Roy, and Sawchuk. You have to be pretty friggin good to start that many games.

In terms of individual stats, Belfour and Ozzie are mirror images. But when you factor in wins and individual awards, Belfour has a decided advantage. That is the difference between getting in the HoF and not. It isn't much, but I agree with the voters on this one.

If individual awards are the deciding factor then I assume you’d agree that Brendan Shanahan should NOT be in the HoF then?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

If individual awards are the deciding factor then I assume you’d agree that Brendan Shanahan should NOT be in the HoF then?

No. I said Belfour's individual awards (plus wins and games played) gave him a decided advantage over Osgood. And is the reason he is in and not Ozzie when comparing these 2 specific players. I didn't say that individual awards were a requirement to get in.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

35 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

But ya minghia lets just get any free agent cause a 33 yr old backup bernier put up nice stats on a s*** team so just put anyone back there and were winning cups

No one is saying this but you.

Bernier is here because he is a relatively cheap and competent goalie. This is a rebuilding team, so he fits in nicely for the time being.

Literally no one has said anything about keeping him here long term or winning a Cup with him in net. There are, and will be, better options available if and when the team needs to upgrade.

 

1 hour ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Join the discord.

We have two average ass goalies on the wrong side of 30. Nobody is coming up the pipe besides maybe Petruzzelli who is also maybe jetting. Boston reporters are now hyping him to the Bruins. We should be addressing this position beyond just "keep signing whosoever in FA bro"

Bernier is a stopgap and isn't an improvement over Howard. I havent seen anyone say otherwise. That doesn't mean that this team has to draft a goalie at #6. It's not an either/or situation. There are other options.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Nobody seems to know diddly about this draft. Wallnut going 1st overall or slipping to the 2nd round... neither would surprise me.

Neither of those scenarios is happening. Waldo is going top 10. I just dont want to be the team that drafts him that high.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Lmao i know ah ... love the we can always get one in the later rounds replys

they should check our goalie drafting history the past 25 yrs

And yet they won 4 Cups during that time. How is that possible?

[Dabura 12,228]

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I suppose you could try to turn the conventional line of gritty winger-playmakeing center-shooter on it's head and have gritty winger-shooting center-playmaker. In which case I suppose McTavish would work (though in that case I'd rather have Lucius since he's the better faceoff guy). A top nine as follow might be fine, depending on how Raymond, McTavish/Lucius, and Berggren turn out but it's still fairly small.

Bert-Larkin-Vrana

Ras/Veleno-McTavish/Lucuis-Raymond

Fabbri/Berggren-Ras/Veleno-Zadina

I think I'd still prefer a playmaking center with this pick. As I've said elsewhere, I'd draft Johnson/Eklund and spend the next two years teaching them to be top centers in the AHL. I'd pick up Ryan Johanson for peanuts to be a workhorse for the next two years and eventually be our 3C at the end of his contract (or trade him). I'd move Veleno AND Rasmussen to the wings to give us the grit we need. And I'd look to fix our LD and goalie situations by trading Fabbri and Zadina/Berggren. In three years we'd have:

Bert-Larkin-Raymond

Veleno-Johnson/Eklund-Vrana

Ras-Johansen-Zadina/Berggren

Smith-Glen-Pearson (or something like that).

As a bit of an aside... I mostly agree with Tony Ferrari's takes on the centermen in question (while not fully agreeing with his rankings):

2021 NHL Draft Rankings: The Final Cut [Dobber Prospects]

Quote

2 | William Eklund | C/W | Djurgården (SHL) | 5-10 | 170lbs 

While Benier’s solidified his spot at the top, Eklund and Wallstedt (#3) were both in the conversation. Sweden continues to produce high-end talent with a strong 2021 draft class headed by Djurgårdens forward William Eklund. He plays a highly intelligent game with few mistakes. His playmaking ability is among the best in the class with silky smooth passing and vision that sees through layers with ease. He looked comfortable at the SHL level this season and came up big in big moments with multiple overtime winners. He has some positional versatility with the ability to play center as well. As arguably the top transition player available in 2021, Eklund should translate quite well to the NHL game.

Quote

8 | Mason McTavish | C/W | EHC Olten (SL) / Peterborough (OHL) | 6-2 | 207lbs 

The skating and defensive concerns that kept him towards the back end of round one for much of the season – including the midseason rankings with just a few underwhelming Swiss League games under his belt – have all but disappeared. His skating looked more and more powerful as the games wore on during his stint in Switzerland and he showcased his explosiveness at times at the U18s. His defensive effort improved greatly over last season as well, playing center even at times in Switzerland and quite a bit at the U18s. McTavish had the looks of a hired gun with a physical edge and nice hands in tight coming into the year. As we head into the draft shortly, he goes in looking like a much more complete player with a wicked shot from anywhere, physicality, and a cycle game that can wear on defenders, all wrapped up in a player who has some positional versatility and defensive acumen that wasn’t expected. I’m happy to say I was dead wrong on McTavish earlier this season.

Quote

11 | Kent Johnson | C | Michigan (NCAA) | 6-0 | 166lbs 

One of the most fun players in the draft, Kent Johnson plays college hockey like he’s on his Xbox at home. That’s not necessarily always the best thing but it certainly makes him entertaining to watch. He has incredible pucks skill with the ability to do anything from the lacrosse goal to dangling through multiple defenders but he is always in that ‘gamer’ mode. He needs to reign in some of the wild creativity and harnesses it to make him more consistently dangerous. With that said, he is an excellent playmaker who may not play with the most pace all of the time but he is so incredibly dangerous when the puck is on his stick in the offensive zone. His ceiling is quite high but the floor is at the other end of the scale as well. There is so much to like about Johnson but there are some major red flags as well.

Quote

17 | Chaz Lucius | C/W | U.S. U18 (USNTDP) | 6-0 | 172lbs 

With only a very small sample size to go off this season, Lucius needed to stand out in a major way. He certainly did. Producing at a goal-per-game rate across 13 games, Lucius made sure to let everyone know that he was going to try and stake his claim to the throne of top goal scorer in this draft class. He has an impressive skill level and quick, decisive hands that allow him to work his way through the offensive zone. He attacks the net and has a wicked shot. He often shoots from unorthodox positions and finds ways to be goaltenders with relative ease. His skating has improved year over year, even with the lower-body injury that held him out to start the season. The improvement in his stride and efficiency will go a long way towards ensuring he can stay at center going forward. He may be better suiting for the wing at the next level.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

But that 1C or 1D for all we know might end up being pick 47 in the draft for all we know , we know alot of people in the hockey world smarter than us think wallstedt will be a game changing goalie for a team and thats a position thats non existent right now for us

For all we know maybe yzerman gets that 1D to go with seider at pick 37 to add to wallstedt and we look back and think damn what a great draft we had .... andddd we got wright the following draft ? damnnn lol

You're a lot more likely to find a number one goaltender at pick 38, 48, or 52, than you are to find a 1C or 1D. I also don't think Wallstedt is any more of a sure thing than a few of the skaters that could be available at 6th overall. And that's kind of the point from the anti-goaltender in the top 10 (or 1st round) perspective. My drafting philosophy has always been, never take a goaltender in the 1st round, because "goalies are voodoo", and skaters are much easier to project. That, and like I've mentioned, I'd just prefer to build at team of elite skaters, and have good, not great goaltending.

However, this year, I'm not completely against taking Wallstedt, because...

10 hours ago, BarkBurgerman said:

... there's literally no skater that anyone is excited about this year... so why not draft the goalie and just shore up that position for the next 10-15 years? Not like he's a reach, he's ranked right at our position for the most part and has pretty decent hype out of Sweden.

But, maybe there is a skater that Yzerman is very excited about in this draft. And if that's the case, I'd much rather take the skater. Regardless what anyone thinks of this draft, there will likely be a 1C and / or a 1D available at 6th overall. It's just a matter of if Yzerman will take that player. I don't believe this is a "weak draft", like so many are saying. I just think it's a under-scouted draft, because of the pandemic...

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Thing is i dont know where these much better available options will come from . You likely wont find a goalie who outright steals a game for you like vasilevsky did last night through free agency. Looking back at the recent history of cup winners and most of them has drafted their goaltenders

I don't think you need a goaltender that can steal games every night though, if you have elite skaters. That's the point. Tampa is the best team in the league, and Vasilevskiy is considered one of the best goaltenders in the world right now. Is Tampa great because of Vasi, or is Vasi great because of Tampa. I'm sure it's a bit of both. But Point, Stamkos, Kucherov, Palat, Killorn, Coleman, Hedman, Sergachev, McDonagh, etc. may play a pretty big role in the team's success as well...

Vasilevskiy was definitely on again last night, and maybe Tampa lose that game if he wasn't. But he's also been off some games, lost games that they should have otherwise won. It happens. It happened to Hasek, Brodeur, Roy (as we know all too well), and it will happen to every goalie ever. It goes the other way too. Average goalies like Bernier or Osgood can singlehandedly win you games, and go on heaters and even win you Cup(s), IF you have the skaters in front of him to allow it to happen...

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Bernier is exactly here for the reasons you posted

Thing is i dont know where these much better available options will come from . You likely wont find a goalie who outright steals a game for you like vasilevsky did last night through free agency. Looking back at the recent history of cup winners and most of them has drafted their goaltenders

I want to win cups not A single cup if we’re lucky and definitely not early playoff exits yearly

Carey Price is arguably the best goalie in the league. And he has made it this far into the playoffs how many times exactly?

How many Cups does Lundquist have?

But Waldo is the answer, right?

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

We’re alot more likely to find a goalie at picks 38-48-52 than a first liner or dman? Says who? If thats the case why havent we found a goalie in 25 yrs . All ive heard is how there isnt a high talent guy .... all you hear about beniers is how hes likely a 2C and hes likely going 1 or 2 but we’ll find a 1C at 6?

Because the Red Wings have been bad at drafting and / or developing goaltenders for the past 25 years... It's not because they haven't been available. They just haven't been good at identifying goalie talent in these 18/19 year olds.

Again, I don't buy this being an AWFUL draft with NO elite talent. It's just such an unknown because of lack of games played and in-person viewings. There will be elite talent that comes out of this draft. Yzerman and co. just have to identify who that elite talent is. Maybe it's Eklund / Johnson. Maybe it's Edvinsson / Hughes. Maybe it's Wahlstedt... I have no idea. Hopefully Yzerman does...

18 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Skaters are much easier to predict ? Like rasmussen was?kindl? Man again its not like wallstedt is barely talked about and hes some gaudreau kid being projected at 50 . These are exceptional goaltenders were talking about and in wallstedt’s case he happens to come in a mediocre draft at a time we have literally zero goaltending in our organization 

C'mon man. Skaters ARE much easier to predict. That's a fact. There's a reason most of the top skaters are taken in the first couple rounds, with a few busts mixed in, and a few slipping to the mid to late rounds, while the top goalies are taken all throughout the draft. Sure, the elite of the elite are often taken at the top, but that's no different with skaters.

I'm aware how "exceptional" Wallstedt is "projected", and how "mediocre" a lot of the skaters are "projected", which is why I wouldn't hate the pick. All I'm saying is that IF Yzerman believes Wallstedt could be a true number one goaltender, and McTavish / Clarke (or whoever) could be a true number one center / defenseman, then I hope he leans skater, and worry about the goaltender later.

25 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

Dude could there be a 1c or 1d available at 6? Sure but they can also get drafted 49 and 65th and theres no way yzerman will end up taking someone like that at #6 so with realistic targets in mind at 6 i dont think we’ll do better than wallstedt . Time will tell though

Absolutely. But that same logic applies to a goaltender. Could Wallstedt become a 1G? Sure, but there could also be one available at 38, 48, 52, or 70...

Yes, time will tell, just like any draft / future projection on kids...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

25 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

 

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/MarkDivver/status/1410360756919541770?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1410360756919541770|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=

Ah yes. Guy from Boston with 2000 followers. Must be true. 

You guys can have your big moment once someone other than Mahhhhk confirms

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

57 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

You literally listed a bunch of Bernier tier options besides maybe Fleury. I might be okay with a carousel of Bernier tier goalies if the team was the powerhouse it was in 90/00's, but it's not, and probably won't ever be again in our lifetimes.

How many Vezinas does Bernier have?

[kipwinger 8,675]

12 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said:

I said hes got upside to be a #1 elite goalie who can change a franchise . People smarter than me and you have claimed him to be quite possibly the best prospect to come out of this draft and the one with the highest ceiling . I dont have to prove s*** , theres plenty of videos and articles you can watch/read yourself but you wont cause your just scared to draft a goalie

Are you for real? Theres countless mock drafts of wallstedt going at the top of the draft . The teams avoided picking goalies in the top 10 in recent history cause ppl were scared like you but thats changing and goalies getting picked at the top of the draft again. Knight should have been a top 10 pick but teams obviously talked themselves out of it . Teams are changing their views when certain goalies are worth the hype

Wallstedt’s ability to stay composed and not rattled will lead him into being a starter in the league. Again if you want to know more view clips and read articles or just keep praying we dont draft a goalie cause its frowned upon

Belfour didnt play behind hall of fame rosters

So he's a "franchise goalie" because he doesn't get rattled and stays composed. Good analysis. Totally a worth a top ten pick.

This (or something like this) is exactly what I imagined you'd say. You can't even articulate WHY you think he's so good, but you're just super sure he is. And no, things aren't "changing". There have been like 4 goalies taken in the top ten since 2001 and none in like 12 years or something. You're just being argumentative for the sake of it. Some people view resistance to their "ideas" as proof of their validity. You're one of those people.

Nobody is "scared" to pick a goalie. It's just poor asset management. Why? Because almost all of the best forwards in the league were picked in the top ten. Almost all of the best defensemen in the league were picked in the top ten. Almost NONE of the best goalies in the league were picked in the top ten. Because goaltenders are harder to project. Dozens of GMs have made hundreds of top ten picks over the last 20 years and almost NONE of them agree with your logic. And the ones who did were wrong more often then they were right. The fact is almost nobody agrees with you, and the ones that do have been mostly wrong.

So cut the sh*t.

[kipwinger 8,675]

11 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

No. I said Belfour's individual awards (plus wins and games played) gave him a decided advantage over Osgood. And is the reason he is in and not Ozzie when comparing these 2 specific players. I didn't say that individual awards were a requirement to get in.

Right, I got that. What I don't get is why this criteria matters to you in this case but you don't seem to favor using similar criteria when comparing others. You're also picking and choosing which metrics to emphasize without really explaining why.

Why is Brendan Shanahan worthy of the Hall but not Dave Andreychuk when their career accomplishments are nearly identical? Why do Belfour's Jenning's Trophies matter more than Osgood's Stanley Cup advantage?

And I'm genuinely not trying to single you out here. I'm just using this as an example because it happens with HoF debates every year. There's no objective why to evaluate these guys because the more criteria you use (stats, personal accomplishments, team success, longevity, etc. etc. etc.) the more trouble you'll have weighting each category properly.

I say let anyone who's had a great, long, career into the HoF as an attaboy to them and then set the Hall up in such a way that the very best of the best are emphasized in line with their greatness. Nobody is going to confuse Gordie Howe with Dino Ciccarelli just because they're both in the HoF.

The HoF is like any other museum. It's not like the Louvre doesn't accept paintings if they're not as good as a Monet. They just emphasize the Monet paintings, or the Mona Lisa, or whatever more than they do the others.

Edited July 1, 2021 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 5,065]

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Belfour: 484 wins, 2.50 GAA, .906 S%, 2 Vezinas, 4 Jennings, Calder, Stanley Cup

Osgood: 401 wins, 2.49 GAA, .905 S%, 0 Vezinas, 2 Jennings, No Calder, 3 Stanley Cups

Both played 18 seasons, but Belfour played in more than 200 games more than Osgood, totalling almost 1000. That's insane. Only 4 goalies in NHL history have played more: Brodeur, Luongo, Roy, and Sawchuk. You have to be pretty friggin good to start that many games.

In terms of individual stats, Belfour and Ozzie are mirror images. But when you factor in wins and individual awards, Belfour has a decided advantage. That is the difference between getting in the HoF and not. It isn't much, but I agree with the voters on this one.

Honestly, Belfour has more wins BECAUSE he played 200 more games...BUT if you go by winning % Belfour is at .502 and Osgood is at .538, so you can argue that Osgood was the better winning goalie in less games played. Osgood belongs in the Hall, there no question. But since he was "normal" and wasn't flashy, he always gets crapped on. I don't care what team he played on, how good the defense was, throughout their careers, Belfour and Brodeur played on the 2 of the top 3 defensive teams in the NHL, Dallas and New Jersey always were at the top of the league when it comes to defense. Patrick Roy as well. A great goalie can only take you so far, you NEED that team in front of you to win.  So ask yourself this if you think the ONLY reason Osgood was so, well, Good, is because of the Red Wings, then how good would Belfour, Brodeur and even Roy have been on crappy teams? Just look at the year Belfour was traded to San Jose. He was 11 and 15 on a Chicago team that was going downhill, he gets traded to San Jose and goes 3-9. He didn't come back to being a "great" goalie until he went to Dallas, (again) one of the best defensive teams in the NHL. Osgood, for comparison, got picked up by the Isles on waivers (Thanks Holland) and went on to play in 66 games, winning 32 of those and taking them to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years, taking a 5th place (out of 5) team in their division to a 2nd place finish that year. Also, when comparing him to Hasek (not saying he's Hasek) but in 2008, Hasek was struggling (ya he was older, but so was Ozzie) and Osgood came in a literally took that playoff by storm. He should've won the Conn Smythe, hands down. If they would've repeated in 09, he WOULD'VE won it, he was the best Goalie in that series too. Ozzie belongs there. Who cares about individual awards, sure, they're nice to look at on the mantle, but it's more about winning Cups and being the guy who helps your team more than helping yourself. BTW, #30 should be in the rafters too.