Babs got fired

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Welcome back frens

[Jersey Wing 1,521]

Blashill outlasted him

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Wing said:

Blashill outlasted him

Yeah but Blash woulda been fired after two loses in a row in Toronto. Two dif situations.

[Jersey Wing 1,521]

Oh I know, just fun to toss that around. 

[kliq 3,763]

Long time no see everyone, glad to be back!

I think this move will bite TO in the ass. Dubas did a bad job constructing this roster, and I see this is as him giving himself a second chance. Maybe Sheldon Keefe meshes better with these particular players, but I worry that TO is about to go down the road of the Oilers a few years ago, a team with great talent on paper, that just can't win. Not to mention, they are likely loosing their entire blueline in the summer. They couldnt have handled the Nylander/Mathews/Marner situation any worse. They should have traded Nylander for a young D-man, the a lesser deal with Marner first, then a larger deal with AM. But hindsight is 20/20.

[gcom007 1,465]

It’s do or die for Dubas and that roster at this point. That Babcock was a big enough name to dominate the headlines so often is a luxury that’s now gone. They keep flailing and it’s going to be a total “******* embarrassing” situation.

 

Not that it isn’t already...

Edited November 22, 2019 by gcom007

[55fan 5,133]

So who are they going to get to replace the interim coach?

Who is out there that could take the heat in Toronto?

[gcom007 1,465]

5 minutes ago, 55fan said:

So who are they going to get to replace the interim coach?

Who is out there that could take the heat in Toronto?

Well, Sheldon Keefe has won at every level.

I feel like I’ve heard that somewhere before...

He’s Dubas’s guy, until Dubas is gone.

[F.Michael 4,590]

So far I'm the only one who voted 'Yes'...

The Leafs have been a .500 team since January - the snotty twats that wear the Leafs jerseys have clearly checked out on him...The only way this team has a shot at making the playoffs, and getting past the 1st round is to play to what they are capable of - hi-end offense, and screw any idea of defensive minded hockey.

This basically falls of wunderboy Dubas - now he has his man Keefe in control - lets see what happens.

[kliq 3,763]

21 minutes ago, 55fan said:

So who are they going to get to replace the interim coach?

Who is out there that could take the heat in Toronto?

I think Keefe is the guy they are going with.

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

I think Keefe is the guy they are going with.

Yup - Keefe has been suckling at Dubas' teet some years ago in Junior hockey.

Best of luck to them - this is a soap opera at it's finest.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

So far I'm the only one who voted 'Yes'...

The Leafs have been a .500 team since January - the snotty twats that wear the Leafs jerseys have clearly checked out on him...The only way this team has a shot at making the playoffs, and getting past the 1st round is to play to what they are capable of - hi-end offense, and screw any idea of defensive minded hockey.

This basically falls of wunderboy Dubas - now he has his man Keefe in control - lets see what happens.

I think long term they should have stuck it out with Babs and forced their players to conform and grow

But they cater to every whim of their snowflake players so ur probs right, this is the best course for the next few years of success.

doubt this leads to them winning s*** thou

[gcom007 1,465]

6 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

So far I'm the only one who voted 'Yes'...

The Leafs have been a .500 team since January - the snotty twats that wear the Leafs jerseys have clearly checked out on him...The only way this team has a shot at making the playoffs, and getting past the 1st round is to play to what they are capable of - hi-end offense, and screw any idea of defensive minded hockey.

This basically falls of wunderboy Dubas - now he has his man Keefe in control - lets see what happens.

He’s won at every level. What could go wrong?

[kliq 3,763]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think long term they should have stuck it out with Babs and forced their players to conform and grow

But they cater to every whim of their snowflake players so ur probs right, this is the best course for the next few years of success.

doubt this leads to them winning s*** thou

Agreed, ultimately the message being sent here was we are firing the coach for being too hard on you. Not the message to send to a team that can't beat Boston in a playoff team because they are not tough enough. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

Agreed, ultimately the message being sent here was we are firing the coach for being too hard on you. Not the message to send to a team that can't beat Boston in a playoff team because they are not tough enough. 

It amazes me that Laffs fans don't see this. Their players score 5 goals then refuse to grind, forecheck, backcheck, or win board battles. Do you honestly see that working come playoff time?

The one guy who can probably fix that is babs, and instead they say "he lost the room". Noooo... management allowed players to walk OVER the coaching staff.

They celebrate the firing of Babs now, but just wait. That cesspool will be freaking out in a few years time when their team is soft and players dont work hard. Typical Tronna. I give Chief Keefe under 5 years. Dubas will be fired in 3 or less. Biggest mistake Shanahan ever made was replacing Lam with Doobs

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It amazes me that Laffs fans don't see this. Their players score 5 goals then refuse to grind, forecheck, backcheck, or win board battles. Do you honestly see that working come playoff time?

The one guy who can probably fix that is babs, and instead they say "he lost the room". Noooo... management allowed players to walk OVER the coaching staff.

They celebrate the firing of Babs now, but just wait. That cesspool will be freaking out in a few years time when their team is soft and players dont work hard. Typical Tronna. I give Chief Keefe under 5 years. Dubas will be fired in 3 or less. Biggest mistake Shanahan ever made was replacing Lam with Doobs

This all began last summer as I predicted...

Shanny - 'players need to take team friendly contracts'.

Dubas - 'we're gonna keep this team together'.

Matthews/Marner - 'this is why we have agents'.

Writing on the wall with these entitled c**ts...3 years of 'service', and they hit the gravy train - maybe they actually earn their $$$ - how about that?

This is why I'm glad we got an 'old school' type in Grand Master Y running the show here - don't let these 20 sumthin twats get what they want - they're not that special until they prove sumthin...The Leafs are screwed for the foreseeable future courtesy of caving in to their demands.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

This all began last summer as I predicted...

Shanny - 'players need to take team friendly contracts'.

Dubas - 'we're gonna keep this team together'.

Matthews/Marner - 'this is why we have agents'.

Writing on the wall with these entitled c**ts...3 years of 'service', and they hit the gravy train - maybe they actually earn their $$$ - how about that?

This is why I'm glad we got an 'old school' type in Grand Master Y running the show here - don't let these 20 sumthin twats get what they want - they're not that special until they prove sumthin...The Leafs are screwed for the foreseeable future courtesy of caving in to their demands.

No you are 100% right. It began with Nylander. They folded and gave him max dollar... that led to folding and giving marner max dollar... meanwhile loyal depth players are getting traded off. You cant do that and then not cater to those players demands... aka firing Babs.

Yzerman would have told Nylander to figuratively f*** himself and he would've been traded for a reliable Dman. Then Marner wouldn't have the balls to ask for a bajillion dollars and the culture would be in check.

It's classic management v labor and Dubas has the foresight of an 18 year old community college student.

Should be fun to watch lol

[gcom007 1,465]

I think the goal in the last minute tonight is the shape of things to come. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

Babcock absolutely should have been fired. He's a dinosaur. He refuses to evolve with the game, and unless he gets a big team, that plays "heavy" and "hard-on-pucks", I'm sure his next stop will end similar to this one. A good coach can adapt to the roster he is given. Babcock was given skilled players, and wanted them to play "grind-it-out" hockey. The Leafs have enough skill that they should be trying to win games 5-4, rather than 2-1. The problem was never that Matthews or Marner or whoever were too soft. It's that they weren't hard enough for Babcock. He'd prefer to rely heavily on the try-hards than the skill.

Dubas overpaid his star players, and Babcock overplayed the role players. That's why it didn't work out. The skilled players are the one's that are going to win hockey games, not the role players. Analytics are taking over the sport, and for good reason. We've seen the enforcers role diminish, and now we're starting to see the same with the grinders role. The league is getting faster and more skilled every year. Babcock's style of coaching will never last, unless he's willing to change... He won't.

[amato 3,210]

Personally, I love a good laugh at the Leafs' expense. Keep this gong show going, I hope they waste the talent on that roster  

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Babcock absolutely should have been fired. He's a dinosaur. He refuses to evolve with the game, and unless he gets a big team, that plays "heavy" and "hard-on-pucks", I'm sure his next stop will end similar to this one. A good coach can adapt to the roster he is given. Babcock was given skilled players, and wanted them to play "grind-it-out" hockey. The Leafs have enough skill that they should be trying to win games 5-4, rather than 2-1. The problem was never that Matthews or Marner or whoever were too soft. It's that they weren't hard enough for Babcock. He'd prefer to rely heavily on the try-hards than the skill.

Dubas overpaid his star players, and Babcock overplayed the role players. That's why it didn't work out. The skilled players are the one's that are going to win hockey games, not the role players. Analytics are taking over the sport, and for good reason. We've seen the enforcers role diminish, and now we're starting to see the same with the grinders role. The league is getting faster and more skilled every year. Babcock's style of coaching will never last, unless he's willing to change... He won't.

I think everyone agrees Babcock lost the room. Question is, who is to blame for that? Is the coach just crappy, or are the players a buncha prima-donnas?

On the one hand, Dubas is building an offensive-minded talent-laced team. It makes good sense to can Mike Babcock because of that. Babs is a shutdown coach and will never fit that style.

On the other hand, I think back to Zberg and Dats. Wings players always hated Babs, but they still bought into his system. And Zberg and Dats evolved and grew into two of the two best defensive forwards to ever play the game under this man. I think Dats and Zberg would have been EVEN higher scorers under a different coach... but then they would have never become the truly complete players they did become under Babs.

So yeah Babs didn't adapt, and that killed him. But I also think his players didn't adapt (buy in) and that's gonna kill them all in the long-run.

They play like individuals. They don't win board battles. But they sure can score. I foresee a lot of nice regular seasons, but very few cups coming from that formula.

[gcom007 1,465]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Babcock absolutely should have been fired. He's a dinosaur. He refuses to evolve with the game, and unless he gets a big team, that plays "heavy" and "hard-on-pucks", I'm sure his next stop will end similar to this one. A good coach can adapt to the roster he is given. Babcock was given skilled players, and wanted them to play "grind-it-out" hockey. The Leafs have enough skill that they should be trying to win games 5-4, rather than 2-1. The problem was never that Matthews or Marner or whoever were too soft. It's that they weren't hard enough for Babcock. He'd prefer to rely heavily on the try-hards than the skill.

Dubas overpaid his star players, and Babcock overplayed the role players. That's why it didn't work out. The skilled players are the one's that are going to win hockey games, not the role players. Analytics are taking over the sport, and for good reason. We've seen the enforcers role diminish, and now we're starting to see the same with the grinders role. The league is getting faster and more skilled every year. Babcock's style of coaching will never last, unless he's willing to change... He won't.

I’d like to revisit this in six months. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think everyone agrees Babcock lost the room. Question is, who is to blame for that? Is the coach just crappy, or are the players a buncha prima-donnas?

On the one hand, Dubas is building an offensive-minded talent-laced team. It makes good sense to can Mike Babcock because of that. Babs is a shutdown coach and will never fit that style.

On the other hand, I think back to Zberg and Dats. Wings players always hated Babs, but they still bought into his system. And Zberg and Dats evolved and grew into two of the two best defensive forwards to ever play the game under this man. I think Dats and Zberg would have been EVEN higher scorers under a different coach... but then they would have never become the truly complete players they did become under Babs.

So yeah Babs didn't adapt, and that killed him. But I also think his players didn't adapt (buy in) and that's gonna kill them all in the long-run.

They play like individuals. They don't win board battles. But they sure can score. I foresee a lot of nice regular seasons, but very few cups coming from that formula.

It doesn't matter who the blame is. What's easier / makes more sense? Fire the coach or trade multiple players that were underperforming?

Like you said, Babcock did not fit the style of game that Dubas was trying to build. The coach had to go.

Regarding the bold.. I hope you're right.

1 hour ago, gcom007 said:

I’d like to revisit this in six months. 

Revisit what? Did I say anything that isn't true?

[Dabura 12,228]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think everyone agrees Babcock lost the room. Question is, who is to blame for that? Is the coach just crappy, or are the players a buncha prima-donnas?

On the one hand, Dubas is building an offensive-minded talent-laced team. It makes good sense to can Mike Babcock because of that. Babs is a shutdown coach and will never fit that style.

On the other hand, I think back to Zberg and Dats. Wings players always hated Babs, but they still bought into his system. And Zberg and Dats evolved and grew into two of the two best defensive forwards to ever play the game under this man. I think Dats and Zberg would have been EVEN higher scorers under a different coach... but then they would have never become the truly complete players they did become under Babs.

So yeah Babs didn't adapt, and that killed him. But I also think his players didn't adapt (buy in) and that's gonna kill them all in the long-run.

They play like individuals. They don't win board battles. But they sure can score. I foresee a lot of nice regular seasons, but very few cups coming from that formula.

There's lots of blame to go around.

Like I said over at the HFB, I think this is mostly a mess of Dubas's creation. I'm still not convinced the Tavares signing was necessary. I think he should've told Nylander to pound sand and then traded him for a defenseman. I think if he absolutely HAD to trade Kadri, he needed to get back someone who could provide the same kind of matchup prowess, be it a forward or a defenseman. I don't know how he looks at recent Cup-winners and says, "OK, so this is clearly a speed and skill league and so that's going to be our identity." Did he watch the Blues last season? Did he not see what Barry Trotz was able to do with the Caps? Does he understand how Mike Sullivan was able to get back-to-back Cups out of the Pens? Has he ever talked to a Red Wings fan about all the powerhouse Wings teams that got kicked in the teeth in the playoffs?

Did he ever look over the roster that got Babcock his one and only Cup? Prob'ly not. Because Babcock was never His Guy. And I think that was the fundamental problem. Dubas wants someone who sees things the way he sees them, or at least someone who won't give him pushback on everything. Babcock doesn't see things the way Dubas does, and this is a man who'd "fight" with Ken Holland on a daily basis. So, a breakup was inevitable.

I'm not saying Babcock is blameless. If Babcock is half the coach his trillion-dollar contract says he is, the Leafs are not out of the playoff picture right now. But, again, look at the makeup of recent Cup winners. For the most part, they were driven by highly experienced, battle-hardened players. Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly -- they're still learning what it takes to win in this league. They haven't lost enough. They haven't suffered enough. They haven't had that "change or die" moment thrust upon them and consciously chosen to change. They don't have a Datsyuk. They don't have a Zetterberg. They don't have a Backstrom. They don't have an O'Reilly. They don't have an identity that's been forged in a crucible and has emerged organically. They just have a lot of scorers.

• Tavares = Elite, veteran scoring center with a weak D game who will probably never have an "Yzerman under Bowman" arch
• Matthews = Elite, baby-aged scoring center with a weak D game
• Marner = Elite, baby-aged scoring winger who's probably the closest thing they have to a (young!) Datsyuk/Zetterberg
• Nylander = Baby-aged top-six scorer, nothing terribly special, every good playoff team has at least two
• Kapanen = Baby-aged top-six/nine scoring winger, nothing terribly special, every good playoff team has at least two
• Johnson, Kerfoot (et al.?) = I'm sensing a pattern here
• Rielly = Solid, young 1D
• Muzzin = Solid, veteran top-four complementary defenseman who can play big minutes
• Barrie = High-end, veteran scoring defenseman who is either The Jesus of Good Hockey or a one-dimensional bottom-four guy, depending on who you ask
• Ceci = He exists
• Anderson = Probably deserves better

Is there an unreal amount of talent on this roster? Absolutely. Is it weighted all wrong? If it's Cup-or-bust for them this season, yes, absolutely.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Dabura

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It doesn't matter who the blame is. What's easier / makes more sense? Fire the coach or trade multiple players that were underperforming?

Like you said, Babcock did not fit the style of game that Dubas was trying to build. The coach had to go.

If I was Shanahan I wouldn't have traded players or fired Babs. I would have pulled Marner and Matthews into my office and said:

"Do you wanna score 90 pts a season? Or do you wanna score 70 pts a season and win cups?

"Cups"

"Good, then STFU and do as Babs says."

Leafs are a young team with a lot of growing and evolving to do yet. Personally I think Babs is a great person to do that sculpting. He's a tough coach. But Shanahan folded and canned the man he personally selected to do that sculpting after push-back from players and probably Dubas as well. Personally I think canning the coach because a buncha 22/23 old players won't buy into his system is rather ludicrous and sets a bad precedent. What happens when these snot nose brats start complaining about Keefe's system too? Ya gonna just keep firing guys until you can find the guy who will wipe their asses the way they like?

I would probably feel different about this if these players were older and hadn't just taken the team for a ransom sum of money at a young age.

I think the Leafs think this year is their year already, and I would wholly disagree. They're a team that's gonna get smashed in the playoffs again the way they play. There's a lot of growing and maturing that needs to happen there yet.

But if they must GO ALL IN this year! Then yes firing Babs makes good sense. He's not gonna fit that roster unless those players REALLY buy in and believe in it.

I always thought Dubas was the one screwing up that team, not Babs.

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

There's lots of blame to go around.

Like I said over at the HFB, I think this is mostly a mess of Dubas's creation. I'm still not convinced the Tavares signing was necessary. I think he should've told Nylander to pound sand and then traded him for a defenseman. I think if he absolutely HAD to trade Kadri, he needed to get back someone who could provide the same kind of matchup prowess, be it a forward or a defenseman. I don't know how he looks at recent Cup-winners and says, "OK, so this is clearly a speed and skill league and so that's going to be our identity." Did he watch the Blues last season? Did he not see what Barry Trotz was able to do with the Caps? Does he understand how Mike Sullivan was able to get back-to-back Cups out of the Pens? Has he ever talked to a Red Wings fan about all the powerhouse Wings teams that got kicked in the teeth in the playoffs?

Did he ever look over the roster that got Babcock his one and only Cup? Prob'ly not. Because Babcock was never His Guy. And I think that was the fundamental problem. Dubas wants someone who sees things the way he sees them, or at least someone who won't give him pushback on everything. Babcock doesn't see things the way Dubas does, and this is a man who'd "fight" with Ken Holland on a daily basis. So, a breakup was inevitable.

I'm not saying Babcock is blameless. If Babcock is half the coach his trillion-dollar contract says he is, the Leafs are not out of the playoff picture right now. But, again, look at the makeup of recent Cup winners. For the most part, they were driven by highly experienced, battle-hardened players. Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly -- they're still learning what it takes to win in this league. They haven't lost enough. They haven't suffered enough. They haven't had that "change or die" moment thrust upon them and consciously chosen to change. They don't have a Datsyuk. They don't have a Zetterberg. They don't have a Backstrom. They don't have an O'Reilly. They don't have an identity that's been forged in a crucible and has emerged organically. They just have a lot of scorers.

• Tavares = Elite, veteran scoring center with a weak D game who will probably never have an "Yzerman under Bowman" arch
• Matthews = Elite, baby-aged scoring center with a weak D game
• Marner = Elite, baby-aged scoring winger who's probably the closest thing they have to a (young!) Datsyuk/Zetterberg
• Nylander = Baby-aged top-six scorer, nothing terribly special, every good playoff team has at least two
• Kapanen = Baby-aged top-six/nine scoring winger, nothing terribly special, every good playoff team has at least two
• Johnson, Kerfoot (et al.?) = I'm sensing a pattern here
• Rielly = Solid, young 1D
• Muzzin = Solid, veteran top-four complementary defenseman who can play big minutes
• Barrie = High-end, veteran scoring defenseman who is either The Jesus of Good Hockey or a one-dimensional bottom-four guy, depending on who you ask
• Ceci = He exists
• Anderson = Probably deserves better

Is there an unreal amount of talent on this roster? Absolutely. Is it weighted all wrong? If it's Cup-or-bust for them this season, yes, absolutely.

Tavares = First big mistake, they just couldn't keep their hand out of the cookie jar and that set the market high on all their young players contracts

Everything sort of snowballs from there

Next Nylander holds out for big money (should've Drouin'ed him) and they caved

Then Marner holds out for big money and they literally moved mountains around to cave for him

Now they're young players are whining about their coach and blaming him for their poor performances and so they cave to that

They seem to be building a team culture of entitled young players, and I'm almost certain it will come back to bite them in the future.

No role-players = first round exit