2020 Offseason Rebuild Thread

[Dabura 12,228]

13 hours ago, kliq said:

To answer your question in the bold, 100% yes I do. I believe that hockey players are motivated by different things.

Some players simply want to win and will only go to a team that is in "win now" mode. Will those players come here right now? No, but lets not pretend that every player is motivated by this and this only.

Some players are motivated by family (ie. Suter/Minny), and if there is a player who grew up close to Detroit and wants to "come home", do I think that player would sign here? Yes.

Some players are motivated by money, they dont care about anything else. To be honest, this is what I believe motivated Panarin. Guy went to a Rangers team that is pretty much in the same boat as us. Sure there is some buzz right now, but if we are talking pre July 1st, landing Kakko and acquiring Trouba for one year doesn't make you a playoff team. Rangers didn't get Panarin because they look like a team on the rise, they got him because they made the 17th(ish) best player in hockey, the #2 highest paid player. Do I think we could sign a guy who only cares about money if we threw the bank at him? Yes. (though you admit that).

Some players are motivated by history/ownership/management etc. At the end of the day the Detroit Red WIngs are the second most successful franchise of all time, and the most successful franchise of the past 25 years. A lot of current player were likely fans of the Wings growing up, and you hear over and over again that "wearing the winged wheel" matters to certain guys. Then when you throw in the fact that we are now being run by quite possibly the most respected GM in the business, we have a leg up in this category. Now do some guys give 2 s***s about this, sure. But do I think some big names could sign here for this reason? Yes.

Your "0% chance" statement is 100% wrong because neither you or I have a clue of what motivates any particular player. I just listed a few motivators, but there are still many more. Everyone is different, but I do believe that if we made a legitimate push for a UFA, we have a chance, I would even argue a strong chance. 

Yeah. Like I said, I do think there's something to the notion that the Wings generally aren't seen as a top destination right now. But I don't think we can safely conclude that no Panarin-caliber UFA would have any interest in signing with the Wings at this time. You've got to evaluate these big signings on a case-by-case basis. And you have to realize we're not especially interested in signing a Panarin unless the GM feels it makes all the sense in the world for the organization.

I remember fairly early on in this past season it was reported that Panarin had a short list of around 4-6 teams, including but not necessarily limited to NYR, NYI, FLA, DAL. While Panarin's apparent lack of interest in the Wings could be taken as a slap in the face and an indictment of our rebuild, it's gotta sting even more for a team like COL. They're a team on the rise, a team with a ton of cap space, a team with a need for a scoring winger, a team that reportedly tried to crowbar themselves into contention for Panarin's services...and they didn't get anywhere with him.

The heart wants what the heart wants. Tavares wanted to be a Leaf, Stamkos wanted to stay in Tampa, and Suter wanted to settle down in Minnesota. Maybe Trouba wants to come home and maybe that's a good enough fit that Yzerman does something he's basically never done as a GM and brings in a top UFA from outside the organization.

[kliq 3,763]

3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Yeah. Like I said, I do think there's something to the notion that the Wings generally aren't seen as a top destination right now. But I don't think we can safely conclude that no Panarin-caliber UFA would have any interest in signing with the Wings at this time. You've got to evaluate these big signings on a case-by-case basis. And you have to realize we're not especially interested in signing a Panarin unless the GM feels it makes all the sense in the world for the organization.

I remember fairly early on in this past season it was reported that Panarin had a short list of around 4-6 teams, including but not necessarily limited to NYR, NYI, FLA, DAL. While Panarin's apparent lack of interest in the Wings could be taken as a slap in the face and an indictment of our rebuild, it's gotta sting even more for a team like COL. They're a team on the rise, a team with a ton of cap space, a team with a need for a scoring winger, a team that reportedly tried to crowbar themselves into contention for Panarin's services...and they didn't get anywhere with him.

The heart wants what the heart wants. Tavares wanted to be a Leaf, Stamkos wanted to stay in Tampa, and Suter wanted to settle down in Minnesota. Maybe Trouba wants to come home and maybe that's a good enough fit that Yzerman does something he's basically never done as a GM and brings in a top UFA from outside the organization.

See that statement I am totally on board with, that is a "realistic" statement.

[Dabura 12,228]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'd pass on Bogosian, Hamonic, and Schultz. Bogo and Hamonic have been overrated for years and I don't think they''d move the needle for us significantly at all. It'd be like adding another Dekeyser. I'd rather just save the money.

Schultz is decent if you shelter him. I don't think we are in any position to be sheltering Dmen. For that reason, I'm out.

I would add Barrie, Brodie, and Gudas to your list. I actually think Gudas is underrated defensively and it gets overlooked because of all his big hits and thugishness.

Honestly, Pietrangelo's the only defenseman on that list who really interests me (and I sincerely doubt he leaves STL). Like you said, there are some good players on that list but they're not necessarily what we need.

Of course, a lot can change in a year. If we make the 2020 playoffs, Yzerman might go fishing. ...Or he could just as easily say, "We just made the playoffs without having added any big-name UFAs back in July. I like our team. I think our young players are gonna be even better next season. Now's not the time to splurge."

Pietrangelo, Backstrom, Trouba. I'd be fine with overpaying for one of those guys and/or adding some depth guys like Gudas. Overall tho, I think UFA madness is dumb. And Yzerman seems to agree.

[Dabura 12,228]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

In with the young, out with the old. I'm just looking forward to the "Official 2021 Offseason Rebuild Thread"... That's when things should really start to get interesting.

oh lord we've become the oilers

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

47 minutes ago, Dabura said:

oh lord we've become the oilers

  Did Peter Chiarelli take over ?

[Dabura 12,228]

Just now, derblaueClaus said:

  Did Peter Chiarelli take over ?

No. Holland opened a transdimensional portal to Hockey Hell (aka Edmonton) and all the suck is leaking into our side.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

3 hours ago, kliq said:

First Bold: Those prospects have never played an NHL game, there is nothing to indicate that they are better then Larkin, Mantha, AA, Zadina, etc. Also, you realize Trouba has not signed an extension yet...right? He filled for arbitration, I am not sure why you are talking as if he has already signed a long term deal.

Second Bold: Truthfully, there is nothing realistic about your posts, you are overly pessimistic. Saying things like "Trouba would have been the perfect fit " and " You really think a Panarin type free agent would come here ? Cause I think there’s a 0% chance at the moment" are not "realistic" comments. You want realistic, read my posts. Optimistic would be saying "UFA will come here" Guarantee we sign Trouba next year" etc. Realistic is what I am saying, that being that we have a chance due to the multiple variables that players take into consieration when choosing a team to sign with. If you are under the impression that i am saying we are the favourites to land a top UFA, then you misunderstood me, because all I am saying is that we have a chance and that I believe if Yzerman really tried, he probably could (not definetely could). 

Third Bold: Define a "star"? Outside of JT and Panarin, name a "star" who has signed anywhere in free agency over the past 5 years. Here is a quick glance at free agency over the past few years:

2013: Top 5 UFA were Horton, Filppula, Clarkson, Riberio and Weiss. We signed Weiss, sure he busted, but who else here is a "star" Alfreddson was also a top UFA that year who the wings signed.

2014: The top UFA's were Stasny, Ryan Miller, and Vanek, none "stars"

2015: I remember watching TSN on July 1st and they had Mike Green ranked as their #1 UFA, We landed him. Would I consider Green a "star" ? no, but he was the best guy available that year and the Wings got him. 

2016: The top UFA's were Okposo, Backes, Lucic, Ladd, Ericsson, and Nielsen (Stamokos never hit UFA), none were stars and all of those guys were busts for what they were paid. 

2017 on the re-build started, so we never went for any. So to make it seem like stars dont want to come here is fan fiction.

There’s nothing to indicate zadina is better from his 9 games either then but I sure as s*** wouldn’t take him over kakko ... I’m the one who’s been talking the most about Trouba coming here in 2020 Yes I’m aware but your aware his wife wants to go to med school and she’s not from Detroit so if he’s doing all this for her there’s just a good a chance he signs longterm so she can study in New York as him returning to Detroit , we’ll see what happens

 

oh ya cause your posts are realistic , where are these stars that have signed in Detroit the last what 5-7 years ? Mr realistic , wake the f*** up man no nhl superstar is signing in Detroit until we turn this team around and become playoff contenders yearly and head in the right direction ... sure yzerman can try right now but doesn’t mean s*** until we turn this team around unless your content signing these scrubs like Nielsen,Weiss we been signing the last 5 years , I’d rather just stand pat and continue the way we are and make some trades along the way

 

A star is a star , it’s not hard to understand really , top line guy who gets the pts and excels ,  Taylor hall is a star player who will be a Ufa next year , will he sign here ? I think there’s no chance 

None of those guys you mentioned were stars , Weiss had injuries and never should have been signed in the first place but we were so deperate to keep a meaningless streak alive , not having much cap room stopped Holland from giving out more stupid deals , we need to stop giving longterm deals To mid tier guys and continue building the way we have 

Edited July 14, 2019 by nyqvististhefuture

[kliq 3,763]

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

There’s nothing to indicate zadina is better from his 9 games either then but I sure as s*** wouldn’t take him over kakko ... I’m the one who’s been talking the most about Trouba coming here in 2020 Yes I’m aware but your aware his wife wants to go to med school and she’s not from Detroit so if he’s doing all this for her there’s just a good a chance he signs longterm so she can study in New York as him returning to Detroit , we’ll see what happens

 

oh ya cause your posts are realistic , where are these stars that have signed in Detroit the last what 5-7 years ? Mr realistic , wake the f*** up man no nhl superstar is signing in Detroit until we turn this team around and become playoff contenders yearly and head in the right direction ... sure yzerman can try right now but doesn’t mean s*** until we turn this team around unless your content signing these scrubs like Nielsen,Weiss we been signing the last 5 years , I’d rather just stand pat and continue the way we are and make some trades along the way

 

A star is a star , it’s not hard to understand really , top line guy who gets the pts and excels ,  Taylor hall is a star player who will be a Ufa next year , will he sign here ? I think there’s no chance 

None of those guys you mentioned were stars , Weiss had injuries and never should have been signed in the first place but we were so deperate to keep a meaningless streak alive , not having much cap room stopped Holland from giving out more stupid deals , we need to stop giving longterm deals To mid tier guys and continue building the way we have 

No need to get so angry, we’re just having a discussion.

First off, I never said Trouba is coming here. I said it’s not a given he’s signing in NY.

Secondly, I’m still waiting to hear you break down all these stars who hit UFA. I agree, none of the guys I listed are stars THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT. You keep saying stars aren’t signing here because they don’t want want to, I’m trying to tell you it’s not not because they don’t want to, it’s  because they rarely hit UFA. I am citing specific examples, you are not. Please do so.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

On 7/14/2019 at 7:03 PM, kliq said:

No need to get so angry, we’re just having a discussion.

First off, I never said Trouba is coming here. I said it’s not a given he’s signing in NY.

Secondly, I’m still waiting to hear you break down all these stars who hit UFA. I agree, none of the guys I listed are stars THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT. You keep saying stars aren’t signing here because they don’t want want to, I’m trying to tell you it’s not not because they don’t want to, it’s  because they rarely hit UFA. I am citing specific examples, you are not. Please do so.

We could have used Panarin.

[LeftWinger 5,065]

If we're following along with what made us a dynasty before, I'll summarize:

Draft well: Fedorov, Lidstrom, McCarty, Kozlov, Osgood, LaPointe, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, etc...

Trade Well : Shanahan, Chelios, Hasek, Larionov...

UFA's follow : Hull, Robitaille, Hatcher (yes, he was the best available at the time) CuJo, Hossa, Rafalski, etc...

Yzerman is drafting well (we hope, we'll see) and soon enough, once his core are stars, he'll make "that trade" that puts us in to serious contention (like the Shanahan trade) and then when we start consistently winning and making the playoffs, UFA's will come.  I have to remind myself, a lot, this exact thing.

[kliq 3,763]

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We could have used Panarin.

I dont think Yzerman wanted him TBH.

[kipwinger 8,675]

From an Athletic article detailing how effectively each team has used its cap space.  Detroit was dead last. 

 

Last, and certainly least, it’s Detroit. How could it be any other team? With four contracts in the D-range on the books, the Red Wings are in a four-way tie for the most bad deals in the league. Where Detroit differs is that the other teams have a few more above average deals to offset the pain. Not Detroit who have as many toxic deals as above-average ones. Those belong to Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, Tyler Bertuzzi and Andreas Athanasiou – four forwards that provide the bulk of the team’s on-ice value. Without them, this team would be cooked.

The biggest issue for Detroit is how much the team is spending for a marginal win over the remainder of their contracts. It’s not just the alarming number of poor deals, or the certainty in how bad those deals are, but the fact that those deals are mostly for players that bring huge negative value. The team is spending $14.5 million per win, the league’s second-highest mark. That contributes to the team’s 35 percent average for positive value probability which is the league’s lowest mark, stemming from seven deals sitting at an under 20 percent success rate.

The team signed a replacement level forward to a two-year deal worth $3 million per, and it’s somehow not even close to being the worst deal on the books. That honour could go to Trevor Daley or Danny DeKeyser or Jonathan Ericsson or Darren Helm or Frans Nielsen or Justin Abdelkader and the fact the team has this many options is why they’re ranked so low.

(Abdelkader made the honourable mentions list on last week’s worst contracts, but through my own personal error should’ve actually been … second. I wrote down that he only had three years left, but he actually has four somehow. My sincerest apologies).

None of them are that expensive, but those deals add up into death by a thousand cuts. Those seven deals are collectively worth $69 million in financial commitment over the next several seasons, $29 million of which is tied up in next year’s cap. The Red Wings stand to lose just over five wins of value combined from those players over the entirety of their contract, with 40 percent of that coming in 2019-20. That’s as bad as it gets.

Well, actually, it gets worse. The next five deals are worth $17 million and are worth negative 0.1 wins on top of that. I just can’t fathom that a professional hockey team is spending over $80 million on players that are actively hurting the team’s chances of winning. New GM Steve Yzerman has his work cut out for him.

[Dabura 12,228]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

From an Athletic article detailing how effectively each team has used its cap space.  Detroit was dead last. 

 

Last, and certainly least, it’s Detroit. How could it be any other team? With four contracts in the D-range on the books, the Red Wings are in a four-way tie for the most bad deals in the league. Where Detroit differs is that the other teams have a few more above average deals to offset the pain. Not Detroit who have as many toxic deals as above-average ones. Those belong to Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, Tyler Bertuzzi and Andreas Athanasiou – four forwards that provide the bulk of the team’s on-ice value. Without them, this team would be cooked.

The biggest issue for Detroit is how much the team is spending for a marginal win over the remainder of their contracts. It’s not just the alarming number of poor deals, or the certainty in how bad those deals are, but the fact that those deals are mostly for players that bring huge negative value. The team is spending $14.5 million per win, the league’s second-highest mark. That contributes to the team’s 35 percent average for positive value probability which is the league’s lowest mark, stemming from seven deals sitting at an under 20 percent success rate.

The team signed a replacement level forward to a two-year deal worth $3 million per, and it’s somehow not even close to being the worst deal on the books. That honour could go to Trevor Daley or Danny DeKeyser or Jonathan Ericsson or Darren Helm or Frans Nielsen or Justin Abdelkader and the fact the team has this many options is why they’re ranked so low.

(Abdelkader made the honourable mentions list on last week’s worst contracts, but through my own personal error should’ve actually been … second. I wrote down that he only had three years left, but he actually has four somehow. My sincerest apologies).

None of them are that expensive, but those deals add up into death by a thousand cuts. Those seven deals are collectively worth $69 million in financial commitment over the next several seasons, $29 million of which is tied up in next year’s cap. The Red Wings stand to lose just over five wins of value combined from those players over the entirety of their contract, with 40 percent of that coming in 2019-20. That’s as bad as it gets.

Well, actually, it gets worse. The next five deals are worth $17 million and are worth negative 0.1 wins on top of that. I just can’t fathom that a professional hockey team is spending over $80 million on players that are actively hurting the team’s chances of winning. New GM Steve Yzerman has his work cut out for him.

meh.

I'll start complaining about the cap situation when we've got a young core that's worthy of a Cup and bad contracts are catastrophically hindering our ability to open and maintain a Cup window.

I suspect Yzerman was fine with signing Flip and Nemeth to two-year deals because he dgaf. I think he feels we're at least two years away from seriously contending. By that point, most of these bad contracts that everyone's always harping on will be off the books.

[kipwinger 8,675]

10 minutes ago, Dabura said:

meh.

I'll start complaining about the cap situation when we've got a young core that's worthy of a Cup and bad contracts are catastrophically hindering our ability to open and maintain a Cup window.

I suspect Yzerman was fine with signing Flip and Nemeth to two-year deals because he dgaf. I think he feels we're at least two years away from seriously contending. By that point, most of these bad contracts that everyone's always harping on will be off the books.

The counter-argument would be that even if you're not a contender if your team isn't full of terrible contracts you can take on (short term) dead weight from contending teams for things that will help you later a la the Canes with Patrick Marleau.  The Canes got a 1st for that BTW.  Certainly something a rebuilding team shouldn't be turning their noses up at because their new GM "dgaf".  But what do I know?

Edited July 17, 2019 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,228]

Just now, kipwinger said:

The counter-argument would be that even if you're not a contender if your team isn't full of terrible contracts you can take on (short term) dead weight from contending teams for things that will help you later a la the Canes with Patrick Marleau.  The Canes got a 1st for that BTW.  Certainly something a rebuilding team shouldn't be turning their noses up at because their new GM "dgif".  But what do I know?

"The bad contracts hinder our ability to get a couple of 2nds in exchange for taking on some dead weight" doesn't rate very high on my list of concerns. Strikes me as more of a "Gotcha!" than a truly damning criticism. While I wouldn't mind seeing the Wings pursue this strategy, it's pretty clear that The Detroit Red Wings Don't Do That, for whatever reasons.

At the end of the day, we're stuck in the suck mostly because we failed to produce enough (any?) blockbuster talent in Datyuk's and Zetterberg's and Kronwall's twilight years. Now, I can't really knock anyone for that failure; like I've said many times, I think we've drafted reasonably well over the past half-dozen years or so. But, still, it's a thing. The hope is that we've started to turn that corner and a couple more drafts will get us there.

"You know what might help us in our quest to acquire that 'blockbuster talent'? Taking on some dead weight."

Fair enough.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

From an Athletic article detailing how effectively each team has used its cap space.  Detroit was dead last. 

 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

The counter-argument would be that even if you're not a contender if your team isn't full of terrible contracts you can take on (short term) dead weight from contending teams for things that will help you later a la the Canes with Patrick Marleau.  The Canes got a 1st for that BTW.  Certainly something a rebuilding team shouldn't be turning their noses up at because their new GM "dgaf".  But what do I know?

We had the cap space to make that deal, and we have the cap space to make similar deals, but for whatever reason we haven't / likely aren't going to. Maybe the Leafs didn't want to trade Marleau to the Wings, giving a divisional rival a 1st round pick. We could still make a similar deal, if there's a team out there that wants to trade a bad contract with one or two years remaining.

Cap space isn't a problem for this team right now, and certainly won't be in the near future.

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

...  But what do I know?

Obviously not how much cap space the Wings currently have.  We could have taken Marleau's contract, plus just about any other bad deal from around the league. 

It's a somewhat interesting partial evaluation of cap usage, but ultimately meaningless. Acquiring talent is the hard part of building a team. Figuring out how to pay for it is relatively easy. We could have afforded Panarin and Trouba (contract-wise, maybe not the trade cost). Instead we got Flip and Nemo and $15M in potential cap space we won't use.

But at least now we'll get to listen to a new round of idiots telling us how bad contracts ruined our dynasty. Glad this kind of bulls*** was legitimized on a paywall  site instead of remaining the tripe of fan blogs. Thanks Dom Lucyzipzamzergyzym. 

[kipwinger 8,675]

16 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Obviously not how much cap space the Wings currently have.  We could have taken Marleau's contract, plus just about any other bad deal from around the league. 

It's a somewhat interesting partial evaluation of cap usage, but ultimately meaningless. Acquiring talent is the hard part of building a team. Figuring out how to pay for it is relatively easy. We could have afforded Panarin and Trouba (contract-wise, maybe not the trade cost). Instead we got Flip and Nemo and $15M in potential cap space we won't use.

But at least now we'll get to listen to a new round of idiots telling us how bad contracts ruined our dynasty. Glad this kind of bulls*** was legitimized on a paywall  site instead of remaining the tripe of fan blogs. Thanks Dom Lucyzipzamzergyzym. 

That's my point.  Why not do that?  Seems like a better use of cap space than signing Filppula and Nemeth because Yzerman "dgaf" as Dabura said.  At least those s*** contract would have contributed something meaningful down the road.   And aren't you the guy who said a few weeks ago that you were tired of tanking and ready for the team to be competitive again?  If that's how you feel I can't imagine you're thrilled with Yzerman's offseason so far.

And for the record, I don't think bad contracts ruined our dynasty.  But I do think that utilizing our cap flexibility like the Canes' did is one way to build the team back up.  I advocated doing the same thing elsewhere with Ryan Callahan and you seemed to think that was a bad idea. Surely that would have been better than signing Filppula (for some reason) when we already have about 35 guys on the team that could be a mediocre third line center. 

 

[kipwinger 8,675]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

"The bad contracts hinder our ability to get a couple of 2nds in exchange for taking on some dead weight" doesn't rate very high on my list of concerns. Strikes me as more of a "Gotcha!" than a truly damning criticism. While I wouldn't mind seeing the Wings pursue this strategy, it's pretty clear that The Detroit Red Wings Don't Do That, for whatever reasons.

At the end of the day, we're stuck in the suck mostly because we failed to produce enough (any?) blockbuster talent in Datyuk's and Zetterberg's and Kronwall's twilight years. Now, I can't really knock anyone for that failure; like I've said many times, I think we've drafted reasonably well over the past half-dozen years or so. But, still, it's a thing. The hope is that we've started to turn that corner and a couple more drafts will get us there.

"You know what might help us in our quest to acquire that 'blockbuster talent'? Taking on some dead weight."

Fair enough.

You know what might help us land some blockbuster talent?  Taking on some dead weight AND the 1st round picks that come with them (which happens to be where most of the bluckbuster talent is).  NOT signing a 3rd line center, a stay at home defenseman, and an AHL goalie for a team LOADED with those things. 

And I thought all the Yzerman slappies were thrilled because he was going to shake everything up.  Not keep on with the "Red Wings Don't Do That" stuff. 

 

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

That's my point.  Why not do that?  Seems like a better use of cap space than signing Filppula and Nemeth because Yzerman "dgaf" as Dabura said.  At least those s*** contract would have contributed something meaningful down the road.   And aren't you the guy who said a few weeks ago that you were tired of tanking and ready for the team to be competitive again?  If that's how you feel I can't imagine you're thrilled with Yzerman's offseason so far.

And for the record, I don't think bad contracts ruined our dynasty.  But I do think that utilizing our cap flexibility like the Canes' did is one way to build the team back up.  I advocated doing the same thing elsewhere with Ryan Callahan and you seemed to think that was a bad idea. Surely that would have been better than signing Filppula (for some reason) when we already have about 35 guys on the team that could be a mediocre third line center. 

You misunderstood me. We could have taken that contract and still signed Flip and Nemo. We could still take a bad contract now if anyone still wants to get rid of one. The reason we haven't has nothing to do with bad contracts, our cap situation, or our recent UFA signings. Most likely the reason is simply the fact that we don't have any control over what other teams do. We may have tried to take Marleau. May have tried to do a lot of other things. I don't know why we didn't do different things, but I do know it wasn't because of limited cap space.

[kipwinger 8,675]

29 minutes ago, Buppy said:

You misunderstood me. We could have taken that contract and still signed Flip and Nemo. We could still take a bad contract now if anyone still wants to get rid of one. The reason we haven't has nothing to do with bad contracts, our cap situation, or our recent UFA signings. Most likely the reason is simply the fact that we don't have any control over what other teams do. We may have tried to take Marleau. May have tried to do a lot of other things. I don't know why we didn't do different things, but I do know it wasn't because of limited cap space.

I understand you completely.  I wasn't suggesting that those signings stopped us from taking on a bad contract. I was rebutting the notion that Dabura was putting forward, which was "why not sign a few puds to short term contracts they don't deserve if you're not a contender?".  I guess I was suggesting that if you're desperate to pay some loser to actively hurt (or at least not help) your team then maybe try to get something out of it.  And that failing to do so is not especially good asset management (cap space being an asset).  Maybe just take on the bad contract without signing the useless depth players.  Or take on a bad contract AND sign useless depth players (as you're suggesting we can), or make them one and the same by making sure your useless depth acquisition IS a bad contract (Callahan).  The only option that does nothing whatsoever to help you in the long term is to sign some useless depth guys and then be done for the summer.  This, of course, is exactly what the Wings did.  So we aren't any better, we're arguably worse, and we didn't even get a pick or two for the trouble.  And since taking on bad contracts is something teams do just about every offseason I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have managed it if we aren't planning on being any good any time soon. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,228]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You know what might help us land some blockbuster talent?  Taking on some dead weight AND the 1st round picks that come with them (which happens to be where most of the bluckbuster talent is).

I suspect it's a little more complicated than "Hey, Steve, take our dead weight and we'll shower you in 1sts." Just saiyan.

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

NOT signing a 3rd line center, a stay at home defenseman, and an AHL goalie for a team LOADED with those things.

We had one 3C in Nielsen. We had no 2C. Still have no 2C, but Filppula gives us a little more depth at forward.

I could've done without the Nemeth signing, but I'm fine with it. Daley and Ericsson are old and falling apart. There seems to be a cloud of uncertainty hanging over Green's future due to this virus thing he's been dealing with. Kronwall could be done. Hronek isn't a shutdown defenseman. Cholowski isn't a shutdown defenseman. Bowey isn't a shutdown defenseman.

Pickard gives us goalie depth. If by some miracle we do go on a surprise postseason run, we'll probably need the depth. Look at how many goalies Vegas went through a couple years ago.

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

And I thought all the Yzerman slappies were thrilled because he was going to shake everything up.  Not keep on with the "Red Wings Don't Do That" stuff.

I'm not an Yzerman slappy. I said he was going to run things pretty much the same way Holland ran things (for the time being).

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I understand you completely.  I wasn't suggesting that those signings stopped us from taking on a bad contract. I was rebutting the notion that Dabura was putting forward, which was "why not sign a few puds to short term contracts they don't deserve if you're not a contender?".  I guess I was suggesting that if you're desperate to pay some loser to actively hurt (or at least not help) your team then maybe try to get something out of it.  And that failing to do so is not especially good asset management (cap space being an asset).  Maybe just take on the bad contract without signing the useless depth players.  Or take on a bad contract AND sign useless depth players (as you're suggesting we can), or make them one and the same by making sure your useless depth acquisition IS a bad contract (Callahan).  The only option that does nothing whatsoever to help you in the long term is to sign some useless depth guys and then be done for the summer.  This, of course, is exactly what the Wings did.  So we aren't any better, we're arguably worse, and we didn't even get a pick or two for the trouble.  And since taking on bad contracts is something teams do just about every offseason I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have managed it if we aren't planning on being any good any time soon. 

As I said: I'm in favor of taking on dead weight, but, for whatever reasons, the Wings have been unable or unwilling to pull off one of these it's-so-damn-easy predatory trades. Regrettable? Sure, I guess. But it shouldn't keep Wings fans up at night.

P.S. Paragraph breaks are your friend.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Dabura

[Spongewingredpants 75]

first of all, I have to recover from the remaining  cap hit of Nielsen, Applehater and Helmer

ill check this thread again when my nausea is gone

 

[F.Michael 4,590]

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You know what might help us land some blockbuster talent?  Taking on some dead weight AND the 1st round picks that come with them (which happens to be where most of the bluckbuster talent is).  NOT signing a 3rd line center, a stay at home defenseman, and an AHL goalie for a team LOADED with those things. 

And I thought all the Yzerman slappies were thrilled because he was going to shake everything up. Not keep on with the "Red Wings Don't Do That" stuff. 

 

I'm not expecting much from Yzerman for at least this season - possible a few seasons.