Rumors Thread

[bIueadams 776]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If we are getting Broberg, this works.  If not, I'd pass.

Oilers need to clear cap space. You can probably still include Broberg, we just won't be getting that 1st round pick coming back if that's the case.

[redw1ngs 149]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Yes.

Because Oilers can't make the deal work without sending Cap back.

The only questionable contract/player to obtain in my original scenario is Derek Ryan. Turris you can use as a 4th liner or healthy scratch for a few months, then he's UFA. Koekkoek is just another cheap Biega. He can play 7th D for us next year. And we do need LHD depth next year.

Ryan has 1 more year left of a $1.25 cap hit, and it's not a 35+ contract. So literally we can just waive and bury him in the minors. But honestly I'd expect Yzerman to just trade him for future considerations or buy him out in the off season if he really doesn't want him as a 13th forward filling a Rowney role. We will have no limitations on cap, and just saving the real dollars is probably worth it to the organization.

Like I said, if you have a problem with that contract, just toss out him and Griess.

That sounds more like a Holland problem then a Yzerman problem. I dont think Yzerman will be in the business of helping out another gm even his old buddy Kenny by taking bad players.

This team eventually needs to stop signing bad filler players and go after some big name ufas. We dont need Turris Ryan or Koekkoek.

13 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Oilers need to clear cap space. You can probably still include Broberg, we just won't be getting that 1st round pick coming back if that's the case.

Also need to start targeting prospects rather then picks so yea Broberg makes more sense imo.

[bIueadams 776]

35 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

That sounds more like a Holland problem then a Yzerman problem. I dont think Yzerman will be in the business of helping out another gm even his old buddy Kenny by taking bad players.

So let me get this straight... Holland offers you Broberg + 3rd for Leddy (50%) + Namestnikov... and you say no, because he also needs to toss in Turris and Koekkoek to make the deal work?

35 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

This team eventually needs to stop signing bad filler players and go after some big name ufas. We dont need Turris Ryan or Koekkoek.

I mean, I really don't want to get into debating the entire concept of why a team needs depth players, but yes we could actually use a guy like Koekkoek, and his presence in no way stops us from signing "big name UFAs". Koekkoek is a career 7th Dman who's going to fill the role of a cheap injury replacement like Biega, Witkowski, Bowey, Marchenko for one season.

LHD
Edvinsson
UFA
Oesterle
Koekkoek

Turris would be here a couple months - you can scratch him if you like - then he's gone.

Ryan can be dealt, sunk, bought out. It's not really a big deal.

I'm shocked this is your hang up. Do you think Yzerman wanted Richard Panik? No, he was a cap dump by WSH to make the Mantha deal work. Do you think Holland wanted Joe Vitale coming back when he traded Datsyuk? No, it was just a minor contract to make the deal work.

Edited December 13, 2021 by bIueadams

[redw1ngs 149]

15 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

So let me get this straight... Holland offers you Broberg + 3rd for Leddy (50%) + Namestnikov... and you say no, because he also needs to toss in Turris and Koekkoek to make the deal work?

I mean, I really don't want to get into debating the entire concept of why a team needs depth players, but yes we could actually use a guy like Koekkoek, and his presence in no way stops us from signing "big name UFAs". Koekkoek is a career 7th Dman who's going to fill the role of a cheap injury replacement like Biega, Witkowski, Bowey, Marchenko for one season.

LHD
Edvinsson
UFA
Oesterle
Koekkoek

Turris would be here a couple months - you can scratch him if you like - then he's gone.

Ryan can be dealt, sunk, bought out. It's not really a big deal.

I'm shocked this is your hang up. Do you think Yzerman wanted Richard Panik? No, he was a cap dump by WSH to make the Mantha deal work. Do you think Holland wanted Joe Vitale coming back when he traded Datsyuk? No, it was just a minor contract to make the deal work.

I said no to your original trade package which included Greiss and Ryan and had a 1st not Broberg. I said Broberg in that deal makes more sense then the 1st.

This team doesnt lack depth players they lack good depth players. None of the players in discussion are better then the depth players we already have.

My hangup isnt taking on bad players its taking on bad players without proper compensation. We agree the picks coming back are fair value taking salary retention in consideration so if edm need to shed salary it should cost them more. imo that would be bumping that 1st to Broberg/Holloway.

[kipwinger 8,675]

I'd rather have a 1st than Broberg. He'd be 3rd or 4th on our LHD depth chart, and I recall reading recently that Edmonton is less than enthused by him so far. We need centers. I really don't want any premium assets that aren't centers or picks we can use on centers. We're absolutely stacked at LHD.

[bIueadams 776]

19 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

I said no to your original trade package which included Greiss and Ryan and had a 1st not Broberg. I said Broberg in that deal makes more sense then the 1st.

So you're okay taking "bad contracts" if Greiss + Ryan + 5th + Broberg (instead of a 1st) is involved?

20 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

This team doesnt lack depth players they lack good depth players. None of the players in discussion are better then the depth players we already have.

Sure, but I'm not advocating keeping any of these players besides Koekkoek. What's your problem with Koekkoek?

35 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

My hangup isnt taking on bad players its taking on bad players without proper compensation. We agree the picks coming back are fair value taking salary retention in consideration so if edm need to shed salary it should cost them more. imo that would be bumping that 1st to Broberg/Holloway.

Maybe you can get a tiny amount "bad player compensation" for Ryan, but that's about it. This is a very cheap player. Koekkoek has a very market fair contract for his services - and that has value - and Turris is a short term rental. Again, adding Ryan doesn't hurt our team in anyway, or at least it's so little with our cap space it's completely negligible.

[bIueadams 776]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'd rather have a 1st than Broberg. He'd be 3rd or 4th on our LHD depth chart, and I recall reading recently that Edmonton is less than enthused by him so far. We need centers. I really don't want any premium assets that aren't centers or picks we can use on centers. We're absolutely stacked at LHD.

You beat me to my next post. Broberg has been playing their 6th spot, and hasn't been playing well. That's why they want to add another LHD. Not that I wouldn't be willing to wait with him.

But I'm certainly not interested in adding more Holland/Wright prospects. I'd much rather hand Draper another 1st and see what he does with it. Like you said, hopefully he uses that on a center.

 

 

[redw1ngs 149]

24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'd rather have a 1st than Broberg. He'd be 3rd or 4th on our LHD depth chart, and I recall reading recently that Edmonton is less than enthused by him so far. We need centers. I really don't want any premium assets that aren't centers or picks we can use on centers. We're absolutely stacked at LHD.

Id lean Holloway over Broberg because we need c's but I think your selling Broberg a bit short. I think he would be our 2nd best LD behind Edvinsson. Johansson and Wallinder are close but Broberg is better imo.

[kipwinger 8,675]

Just now, redw1ngs said:

Id lean Holloway over Broberg because we need c's but I think your selling Broberg a bit short. I think he would be our 2nd best LD behind Edvinsson. Johansson and Wallinder are close but Broberg is better imo.

Admittedly I'm basing this entirely off what I've heard/read from Edmonton folks and the fact that the SHL is generally considered a better league than the AHL. If you think he's better I'll take your word for it, but if he's generally in the same ballpark as Johanson/Wallinder/Buium then I don't know why we'd bother. It's not really a need and we'd end up just trading one of those guys for a center anyway since they can't ALL play for the big club at the same time.

[bIueadams 776]

34 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Id lean Holloway over Broberg because we need c's but I think your selling Broberg a bit short. I think he would be our 2nd best LD behind Edvinsson. Johansson and Wallinder are close but Broberg is better imo.

I don't know much of anything about Holloway other than he was drafted by Tyler Wright and is already dealing with a big injury. For either of those two reasons alone I'd avoid. I trust Draper/Yzerman a helluva lot more with a an extra first than I do Tyler Wright and Dylan Holloway.

The knock on Broberg has always been that he doesn't play defense. It seems to be true. He's consistently been a minus player in the SHL. Was only +1 in the AHL despite scoring 10 pts in 13 games. And now he's -8 in 8 games with the Oilers.

Johanssen and Wallinder are/is already playing better than Broberg did in the SHL at the same age.

He might turn out great, we just don't need him.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

NO-berg to Broberg

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'd rather have a 1st than Broberg. He'd be 3rd or 4th on our LHD depth chart, and I recall reading recently that Edmonton is less than enthused by him so far. We need centers. I really don't want any premium assets that aren't centers or picks we can use on centers. We're absolutely stacked at LHD.

I disagree with this.  We have Edvinsson. That is not "stacked at LHD".  We are stacked with LHD PROSPECTS - Think 2017 Cholowskis if this helps drive the point home.  Broberg is a SUREFIRE NHLer, even if its 3rd pairing work.  That fills a hole right now, which is what we need to do. 

 

Seider-Edvinsson

Hronek-Broberg

Lindstrom-Johansson

 

Would like to pick up Lindholm still, but this D lineup looks real promising.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

11 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Seider-Edvinsson

Hronek-Broberg

Lindstrom-Johansson

Left <==  l ==> Right

 

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Left <==  l ==> Right

 

 

ha ha ha.  youre right.

[kipwinger 8,675]

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I disagree with this.  We have Edvinsson. That is not "stacked at LHD".  We are stacked with LHD PROSPECTS - Think 2017 Cholowskis if this helps drive the point home.  Broberg is a SUREFIRE NHLer, even if its 3rd pairing work.  That fills a hole right now, which is what we need to do. 

 

Seider-Edvinsson

Hronek-Broberg

Lindstrom-Johansson

 

Would like to pick up Lindholm still, but this D lineup looks real promising.

Broberg is not exactly performing well at the NHL level. He's got 1 point in 8 games, has been on the ice for 8 goals against. FWIW Cholowski was actually BETTER in his first 8 NHL games, so your cautionary tale is apt (but probably not for the reasons you mentioned it).

Everything notable Broberg's done to date has been in the SHL and AHL, and we have have prospects at those levels who have performed as well or better than he has. Johansson significantly outperformed Broberg in the SHL last year (at the same age) and Edvinsson and Wallinder are both currently outperforming Broberg's best SHL season at a younger age.

There's really no reason to think he's a better player than any of those guys except that he was drafted higher and is in the NHL sooner. Otherwise he's never outperformed them at any level. He's probably better than Sebrango, Viro, and McIsaac though. Probably not better than Buium, though that remains to be seen.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Broberg is not exactly performing well at the NHL level. He's got 1 point in 8 games, has been on the ice for 8 goals against. FWIW Cholowski was actually BETTER in his first 8 NHL games, so your cautionary tale is apt (but probably not for the reasons you mentioned it).

Everything notable Broberg's done to date has been in the SHL and AHL, and we have have prospects at those levels who have performed as well or better than he has. Johansson significantly outperformed Broberg in the SHL last year (at the same age) and Edvinsson and Wallinder are both currently outperforming Broberg's best SHL season at a younger age.

There's really no reason to think he's a better player than any of those guys except that he was drafted higher and is in the NHL sooner. Otherwise he's never outperformed them at any level. He's probably better than Sebrango, Viro, and McIsaac though. Probably not better than Buium, though that remains to be seen.

He is going to be good.  Thats easy to see.  The skating is top notch, and his size is right.  Could he turn out to be Brendan Smith.  Absolutely.  His floor is NHL washout, unfortunately.  The difference is that his ceiling is NHL all star.  Besides Seider and Edvinsson, I dont see that in any of the other LHD prospects.

[kipwinger 8,675]

51 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

He is going to be good.  Thats easy to see.  The skating is top notch, and his size is right.  Could he turn out to be Brendan Smith.  Absolutely.  His floor is NHL washout, unfortunately.  The difference is that his ceiling is NHL all star.  Besides Seider and Edvinsson, I dont see that in any of the other LHD prospects.

I don't see that in Broberg. And I think you're undervaluing certainly qualities in our prospects that you're exaulting in Broberg. Both Johansson and Wallinder are A+ skaters too, and both have shown more offense than Broberg during their respective stints in the SHL. Additionally, unlike Wallinder and Broberg, Johansson has the added advantage of being really good defensively too.

Remember this from last year? Yeah, Johansson is a stud. Know who's somewhere in that mass of players who AREN'T as good as Seider and Johansson? Broberg.

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

Phuck Broberg

[kipwinger 8,675]

I don't mind the guy, I just wouldn't make a point of targeting him in any trades with Edmonton because I think our LHD prospects are as good or better.

I'm super high on Shai Buium too. Another Yzerman pick that had me scratching my head. Now he's playing like a stud in the NCAA and I'm sold.

This is probably the right time to admit how wrong I was about promoting Kris Draper to Director of Amateur Scouting. I thought it was baseless nepotism but holy hell has our drafting improved in the last three years.

[bIueadams 776]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't mind the guy, I just wouldn't make a point of targeting him in any trades with Edmonton because I think our LHD prospects are as good or better.

I'm super high on Shai Buium too. Another Yzerman pick that had me scratching my head. Now he's playing like a stud in the NCAA and I'm sold.

This is probably the right time to admit how wrong I was about promoting Kris Draper to Director of Amateur Scouting. I thought it was baseless nepotism but holy hell has our drafting improved in the last three years.

Draper doesn't get enough love. Yzerman has explicitly said he leans heavily on his staff to make scouting and draft decisions. He trusts his people because he puts the right people in the right spots.

The only draft pick I'm aware of that Yzerman took a very hands on approach with was Seider. He went personally to Germany to scout him and spend time with him and meet his family.

Draper probably gets most credit for guys like Buium, Mazur, Savage, Hanas, Sebrango, Mstrosimone. Maybe even Cossa and other 1st rounders.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

6 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Draper doesn't get enough love. Yzerman has explicitly said he leans heavily on his staff to make scouting and draft decisions. He trusts his people because he puts the right people in the right spots.

The only draft pick I'm aware of that Yzerman took a very hands on approach with was Seider. He went personally to Germany to scout him and spend time with him and meet his family.

Draper probably gets most credit for guys like Buium, Mazur, Savage, Hanas, Sebrango, Mstrosimone. Maybe even Cossa and other 1st rounders.

I get the feeling SY was more involved with Cossa too.

[bIueadams 776]

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I get the feeling SY was more involved with Cossa too.

He gets no credit for Raymond. Bruh was pissed when he announced that selection.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

There's also that urban myth that Draper was sad-faced clown when he had to take Raymond over Perfetti...............

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

He gets no credit for Raymond. Bruh was pissed when he announced that selection.

This one lol

[bIueadams 776]

18 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

There's also that urban myth that Draper was sad-faced clown when he had to take Raymond over Perfetti...............

This one lol

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I don't see that in Broberg. And I think you're undervaluing certainly qualities in our prospects that you're exaulting in Broberg. Both Johansson and Wallinder are A+ skaters too, and both have shown more offense than Broberg during their respective stints in the SHL. Additionally, unlike Wallinder and Broberg, Johansson has the added advantage of being really good defensively too.

Remember this from last year? Yeah, Johansson is a stud. Know who's somewhere in that mass of players who AREN'T as good as Seider and Johansson? Broberg.

 

 

This is good evidence.  I think I might have to admit you have won this debate.  I take advanced stats seriously.