11/6 GDT: Oilers 2 at Red Wings 1

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

6 hours ago, kliq said:

I'll do my best to respond:

1) Hindsight is 20/20, its very rare for teams to just start rebuilding/tanking when they are still considered a top team in the league.

2) I believe that Larkin and Mrazek have superstar potential, I feel that AA has potential to be our 2C (you said he lacks......lacks what?) and Mantha I believe has potential to be a top line winger. I am not sure why you are so hard on Mrazek, I dont believe he is elite right now, but I think he definitely has the potential to be a top goaltender in this league, he shows flashes and has something special. You said it best, our D is junk, yet he still has come off as good as he has, he just needs consistency and better D in front of him.  Its very early to tell, but Svechnikov seems like he also has alot of potential, possibly a top 6 guy (too early to tell though). Why does it upset you when people have optimism with our prospects? I get some overrate them, but you seem to always put down our prospects any time you get a chance, is it because you feel a top guy must be drafted in the top 5?

On D we are hurting, I think DD can be a very good #2, but we lack a number #1 This is why I really want Trouba. I believe Sproul has top 4 upside, top 6 downside, XO/Marchenko are likely third pairing guys, Russo, Saarijarvi, Cholowski, I dont know too much about them as I have never seen them play, but we will have to wait and see, hence the re-build. D are very hard to draft, most top D are not even drafted high, it usually takes them a lot longer to develop.

3) I get you are not a fan of the rebuild on the fly, but again, the entire concept of it is to keep the team competitive while you re-build. The Wings may fail at the "keeping competitive" part of it, but the re-build part will take a couple years to assess if it was a success or a failure most based on how the guys in #2 end up panning out. If they flop, its a fail. If they succeed, its a success. I really dont understand the debate here. This isnt even me defending it, this is me just saying it like it is. If it was up to me I would be doing things slightly differently and I would be playing more of the kids.

5) I dont like tank jobs, I have seen this fail so many times in my life and for every 1 that succeeds (ie. a Pittsburgh, LA, or Chicago) there seems to be 5 that flop (ie. Arizona, Columbus, Atlanta, Buffalo, Edmonton (pre McDavid), Carolina, Colorado etc.). I wonder how many top 5 picks these teams have had combined since 2006 with NOTHING to show for it, and I dont mean just no cups, but missing the playoffs year after year after year.

6) 100% agree, I'll give the Preds their props. They were my cup pick at the start of the year.

I just want to add, you mentioned Babcock earlier. I have never put down Babs as a coach. I have said he is overrated but not because I think he is bad or even not great. I think he is a top coach along with others, but sometimes the narrative on here is that he is an entire level above all (which is overrating him). Babs leaving hurt us, and I wish he was still here as with Babs I think we could be much better and that it would increase the probability of becoming contenders sooner then later.

 

I agree pretty much with what you said except the Babs part :).

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

4 hours ago, Juklitz said:

1/ But it was quite clear that Rafalski/Lidstrom´s exit will be a major impact for our D, like nothing in previous two decades in comparison. And it was predicted and Holland was NOT prepared, even later then we basically didn´t draft more Ds. And I don´t think that since 2011 Wings were somehow contending. Still, Holland´s moves instantly closed all real rebuilding options when gave a long-term to Kroner, BigE, signed KQ, White, Coala...ovo, 4yrs ´bridge´ to Kindl etc. I do understand the plan and point, but all of that just failed. 

3/ but what is the exact timing of this rebuild-on-fly process? Ok, let´s say it started in 2011. Now it´s 16/17 season and team is constantly falling down and our youngster kick-off plan is still slow. Leafs started like two-three years ago and already have some real future shapes. 

Who actually really succeeded last time with rebuild in a fly? 

I always read that here. But the point is: You can't prepare for a loss of arguably the best defender that the game has ever seen. Holland tried to fix it regardless in trying to get Suter which didn't pan out for reasons beyond Hollands control. The signings you mentioned are all players signed here for bridging the time till our prospects or a trade can make our D  competitive again. So far that has worked (with the exception of Ericcssons contract) and if we can actually land Trouba we look pretty decent. Our defense isn't as bad as some make it here. It's inexperienced and yes, we now have two overpaid veterans (Kronner,E) in it. But we did see what this defense can do in our 6 game winning streak and in flashes as well as in yesterdays game against the Oilers.

This defense is capable of making an outlet pass our carry the puck like none of ours in the last years. I don't think they played that bad last night, they were just lacking the ability to score. And thats where I call out guys like Tatar, Nielsen, Sheahan and others. It's not our D that sucks its again our offense that can't find the back of the net lately.

[kliq 3,763]

5 hours ago, Juklitz said:

1/ But it was quite clear that Rafalski/Lidstrom´s exit will be a major impact for our D, like nothing in previous two decades in comparison. And it was predicted and Holland was NOT prepared, even later then we basically didn´t draft more Ds. And I don´t think that since 2011 Wings were somehow contending. Still, Holland´s moves instantly closed all real rebuilding options when gave a long-term to Kroner, BigE, signed KQ, White, Coala...ovo, 4yrs ´bridge´ to Kindl etc. I do understand the plan and point, but all of that just failed. 

3/ but what is the exact timing of this rebuild-on-fly process? Ok, let´s say it started in 2011. Now it´s 16/17 season and team is constantly falling down and our youngster kick-off plan is still slow. Leafs started like two-three years ago and already have some real future shapes. 

Who actually really succeeded last time with rebuild in a fly? 

Us. Between 2002 and 2008 when we lost the likes of Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Larionov, Hasek, Luc, Hull etc. This is why Holland is doing it, he has done it before and done it successfully. Granted last time we still had Lidstrom, but this is why.

[RedWingsRox 614]

I live in Vancouver, let's just say that thank God they are on a 8 game losing streak to hide/distract the attention away from the Wings misery.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by RedWingsRox

[Juklitz 85]

2 hours ago, derblaueClaus said:

The signings you mentioned are all players signed here for bridging the time till our prospects or a trade can make our D  competitive again.

Which ´our prospects´ actually? November 2016 - XO and Sproul benched, only Marchenko playing and were not picking wider D range between 2011 and 2016. We´ve just spent 5 years with building a bridge to exact point we´ve started and even worst.

 

57 minutes ago, kliq said:

Us. Between 2002 and 2008

Exact reason why I asked... but then it´s clear how 2008 - 2016 comparison works out, isn´t it? 

 

[kliq 3,763]

31 minutes ago, Juklitz said:

Which ´our prospects´ actually? November 2016 - XO and Sproul benched, only Marchenko playing and were not picking wider D range between 2011 and 2016. We´ve just spent 5 years with building a bridge to exact point we´ve started and even worst.

 

Exact reason why I asked... but then it´s clear how 2008 - 2016 comparison works out, isn´t it? 

 

Not really, because its not like 2008 is when D, Z, Kronwall, Lidstrom started to regress/retire. IMO our rebuild on the fly started in 2013 after Lidstrom left and D and Z started to regress.

The re-build may fail, I am not saying it is being done well as I dont know how it will turn out. But you cant count 2009, 2010, and 2011 as "re-build years".

[Juklitz 85]

I don´t know either and I really wish it will turn good sooner or later, but what I know for sure is that Abby´s, Helm´s, Nielsen´s terms won´t help us too much and that at the end of the day, these will be bottlenecks same way as E´s and Kroner´s terms are right now. What I´m saying, that if we are really re-building, why we are constantly choking ourselves?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

13 hours ago, kliq said:

I'll do my best to respond:

1) Hindsight is 20/20, its very rare for teams to just start rebuilding/tanking when they are still considered a top team in the league.

2) I believe that Larkin and Mrazek have superstar potential, I feel that AA has potential to be our 2C (you said he lacks......lacks what?) and Mantha I believe has potential to be a top line winger. I am not sure why you are so hard on Mrazek, I dont believe he is elite right now, but I think he definitely has the potential to be a top goaltender in this league, he shows flashes and has something special. You said it best, our D is junk, yet he still has come off as good as he has, he just needs consistency and better D in front of him.  Its very early to tell, but Svechnikov seems like he also has alot of potential, possibly a top 6 guy (too early to tell though). Why does it upset you when people have optimism with our prospects? I get some overrate them, but you seem to always put down our prospects any time you get a chance, is it because you feel a top guy must be drafted in the top 5?

On D we are hurting, I think DD can be a very good #2, but we lack a number #1 This is why I really want Trouba. I believe Sproul has top 4 upside, top 6 downside, XO/Marchenko are likely third pairing guys, Russo, Saarijarvi, Cholowski, I dont know too much about them as I have never seen them play, but we will have to wait and see, hence the re-build. D are very hard to draft, most top D are not even drafted high, it usually takes them a lot longer to develop.

3) I get you are not a fan of the rebuild on the fly, but again, the entire concept of it is to keep the team competitive while you re-build. The Wings may fail at the "keeping competitive" part of it, but the re-build part will take a couple years to assess if it was a success or a failure most based on how the guys in #2 end up panning out. If they flop, its a fail. If they succeed, its a success. I really dont understand the debate here. This isnt even me defending it, this is me just saying it like it is. If it was up to me I would be doing things slightly differently and I would be playing more of the kids.

5) I dont like tank jobs, I have seen this fail so many times in my life and for every 1 that succeeds (ie. a Pittsburgh, LA, or Chicago) there seems to be 5 that flop (ie. Arizona, Columbus, Atlanta, Buffalo, Edmonton (pre McDavid), Carolina, Colorado etc.). I wonder how many top 5 picks these teams have had combined since 2006 with NOTHING to show for it, and I dont mean just no cups, but missing the playoffs year after year after year.

6) 100% agree, I'll give the Preds their props. They were my cup pick at the start of the year.

I just want to add, you mentioned Babcock earlier. I have never put down Babs as a coach. I have said he is overrated but not because I think he is bad or even not great. I think he is a top coach along with others, but sometimes the narrative on here is that he is an entire level above all (which is overrating him). Babs leaving hurt us, and I wish he was still here as with Babs I think we could be much better and that it would increase the probability of becoming contenders sooner then later.

 

Well I've had that mentality because I was (wrongly) convinced Sutter and Parise could be wearing the Winged Wheel after that failed...I thought okay time for some rebuilding it would have been the perfect time. Kenny could have retired as a god here and the captain who brought the Wings back to their rightful place should have taken over...but we all know what happened. That's not hindsight it's the reality.

2. Well you believe they have, I think Larkin has star potential let's see who is going to be right. Where the f*** am I hard on Mrazek? The way some people are talking about him makes it sound like he's a future vezina winner till he shows that he can handle the number 1 job with consistency I don't think so (maybe I'm wrong but so far this season Howard has been the better goalie there is no denying that). Also I'm not putting them down I have realistic expectations and if they exceed I'll be very happy but if not I'll still be happy because I wasn't crazy about them. Best examples are Nyquist and Tatar, always thought I would be happy if they can produce 20 to 25 to goals on annual basisand so far they've delivered so that makes me happy. Just to be perfectly clear I think McDavid has superstar potential (the guy may already be one) and Eichel isn't far behind but I don't think the other guys (including Matthews) are going to reach such levels.

3. The problem isn't so much that the Wings may or may not fail, it's the construction of this roster and the contracts constantly given out in a panick move because of the streak. Nielsen would have been an awesome signing for a team that's ready for a cup run but you just don't sign guys like him to 6 year deals when you are heading towards a rebuild. It's the same with the Eriksson signing in Vancoucer those 2 deals are just bad. The best signing was Ott at 800k he adds a bit of grit and has seen it all. But whoever the next GM may be has to do a ton of house cleaning. I get it, it's not up to me, you or really anyone else because we aren't running this team. But I really do believe Holland has become complacent and is happy with the status quo which is fine but then have the guts and let someone else do what's needed. Do I have the answers? No, but I'm also not paid millions of Dollars to run a hockeyteam while making statements we try to marginally improve our team and hope that some prospects might turn out great. I mean what type of plan is that? Sorry, but this sounds a lot like the BS that's going on in Vancouver they've lost like 7 in a row and still believe they can compete...of course they can for the first overall.

5. Getting top picks is just part of the story you also need to develop them and be patient with each individual. I mean wouldn't you like to see what the Wings development team could do with a guy like Patrick, Foote or Vilardi? Arizona is not a good example because they are a budget team, I've said it before and I'll say it again I would have liked to see what Maloney can do with a blank check because he did one heck of a job there given all the difficult circumstances.

6. Yeah should be a nobrainer they are unbelievable at developing defenseman and goaltenders.

as for Babcock I think he is the best coach in hockey that doesn't mean that guys like Quennville, Trotz, Sutter, Cooper and the koala are a level below him. Heck I'd be very happy with each one of them. Still can't believe Nashville did let Trotz go. Heck I would even add Boudraus for the regular season.

I'm sure if the Oilers ever win another cup people will put them down and say oh well but they did tank, got lucky and whatever but at the end of the day nobody cares because it's part of the system now wheter fans like it or not. If teams want to increase their odds of a succesful rebuild they'll need to be bad to become godlike again. I mean what Chicago did has been unbelievable and they might win another cup before Toews and Kane are done

To Hell maybe we are both wrong and Kenny finally pulls of some trades who knows but I think we can all agree that this is a very bad hockeyclub by Wings standards.

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by frankgrimes

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

5 hours ago, Juklitz said:

Which ´our prospects´ actually? November 2016 - XO and Sproul benched, only Marchenko playing and were not picking wider D range between 2011 and 2016. We´ve just spent 5 years with building a bridge to exact point we´ve started and even worst.

Add Smith + DeKeyser. Both are playing and both playing decent hockey. Not 1st pair quality, but still good enough to make our D better. And I think we all agree that Sproul should play instead of Ericsson. That are 4 out of 6 players who are homegrown. 5 out of 8 if you count all defenseman that are called up. Again, defense is not our problem with the exception that we lack a No. 1 defender.

Edited November 7, 2016 by derblaueClaus

[kliq 3,763]

11 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

1) Well I've had that mentality because I was (wrongly) convinced Sutter and Parise could be wearing the Winged Wheel after that failed...I thought okay time for some rebuilding it would have been the perfect time. Kenny could have retired as a god here and the captain who brought the Wings back to their rightful place should have taken over...but we all know what happened. That's not hindsight it's the reality.

2) Where the f*** am I hard on Mrazek? The way some people are talking about him makes it sound like he's a future vezina winner till he shows that he can handle the number 1 job with consistency I don't think so (maybe I'm wrong but so far this season Howard has been the better goalie there is no denying that). Also I'm not putting them down I have realistic expectations and if they exceed I'll be very happy but if not I'll still be happy because I wasn't crazy about them.

3) as for Babcock I think he is the best coach in hockey that doesn't mean that guys like Quennville, Trotz, Sutter, Cooper and the koala are a level below him. Heck I'd be very happy with each one of them. Still can't believe Nashville did let Trotz go. Heck I would even add Boudraus for the regular season.

4) I'm sure if the Oilers ever win another cup people will put them down and say oh well but they did tank, got lucky and whatever but at the end of the day nobody cares because it's part of the system now wheter fans like it or not. If teams want to increase their odds of a succesful rebuild they'll need to be bad to become godlike again. I mean what Chicago did has been unbelievable and they might win another cup before Toews and Kane are done

Debating with you Frank is never boring lol, you are the only person who I end up debating/discussing 6 topics simultaneously with. I changed your numbering in the quote to make it easier to respond

1) As far as Suter/Parise/re-building at that time, it is hindsight. I dont remember anyone wanting a re-build at that time. I dont even think Yzerman would have started a re-build if he took over. In 2012 you still had an elite D & Z (or at least that was the perception) and with guys like them still in their prime you need to go for it. The best comparable I can give is If Duncan Keith were to retire at the end of the year, you think Chicago would unload Toews and Kane and re-build, of course not. I realize they are younger and its not the best example, but I think you get my point. Its much easier to point something out 4 years later.

2) When it comes to evaluating players, you are very transparent with your thoughts. The best examples I can give are Eichel and Chychrun (not even going to bring up McDavid, kid is on a different level). I have heard you say more positive things about Chychrun while he was in the OHL then Mrazek during his entire tenure here. This is what I mean by you being hard on Mrazek. The kid is 24 and has all the potential in the world, yet when talking about this team in the future you never say anything positive about him which I don't get. You make ALOT of comments like (I am paraphrasing here) "We have no potential superstars other then Larkin" which is a dig at Mrazek. He's not there yet, but he has all the tools to get there. I dont believe this is similar to Nyquist/Tatar. AA would be a better comparable to them.

3) Babs was/is a good coach, but I dont see how anyone can be labeled the best coach in hockey other then Joel Quenneville. Sure he has Toews, Kane, Keith, and Seabrook, but with a seemingly revolving door of a roster, winning three cups in 6 years is damn impressive, and this is coming from someone who hates Chicago. The only thing Babs has over Q is international success, but Q never got the chance. Had he been given the chance I'm sure he would have done just as well. Not saying Babs didn't deserve the spot, but I think its safe to say that he got the job because of his strong working relationship with Yzerman. If Stan Bowman was in charge of Team Canada, we would probably be saying how Q has won gold and not Babs. Either way, both are great coaches.

4) The Oilers have been a joke for the last 10 years and I have no respect for what the old regime did for the team. The fact that they had as many first overall/top 5 picks and couldn't even sneak into the playoffs with all that talent was simply laughable. Even the McDavid pick, they were not attempting to tank that year, they were expecting to be good but simply sucked. Now they finally look good being led by Chiarelli, McLellan, and McDavid but I cant respect anything that old regime did. Had they picked third the year they picked McDavid, I think they still suck in 2016. McDavid changed everything.

[Juklitz 85]

11 hours ago, derblaueClaus said:

Add Smith + DeKeyser. Both are playing and both playing decent hockey.

Smith is a failed project, wouldn´t mention him. His progression was killed by Babcock and I hope he´s going to make space for XO/Sproul asap. Means - I hope Ken´s not going to re-sign him with some ridiculous term. He was on a good way to be our best pmd, but didn´t happen. Not saying he´s bad, but his upside was light year higher. 

DeKe emerged quickly and lucky us he decided to stay at home. He´s rewarded with term comparable to Lindholm´s fresh one, better than Vatanen and way better than Fowler. Actually, I´m not going to blame Ken for his contract, but in the other hand, take a look on Klingberg´s, Brodie´s, McDonagh´s etc contracts and yes, what I´m saying is he´s paid as a 1st pairing long-term guy which he obviously is NOT. 

So we have 15M in three guys where one is paid better he´s playing (and I hope he´s going to play better), second we´re looking for his retirement/exit and third one should be retired instantly (and you can just guess which one is one). 

And we have Green for another year, Marchy + 1 and above mentioned Smith´s case. So I´m actually searching for rebuild-in-a-fly evidence and what we´re doing more that standard NHL team when adding new youngsters to their roster. Even if I can say "yes, this is THE rebuild", I have to add that this is a high-stake game Holland is playing with accepting all the risks behind. He WAS sure Ericsson is going to be good D, he WAS sure Kroner will be our main corpse for such a long term, now he WAS once again sure DeKe will be our top guy. 

So, now what will happen?