11/6 GDT: Oilers 2 at Red Wings 1

[wings_fanatic 677]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Sorry, Z is done. Kronner is done....damn I wish there is something we could do.

And no, I don't dislike either of them.

Funny i thought kronners and smith was our best pairing tonight. And kronners isnt even up to speed yet.

Also i think hank has put together a string of 3 good games. My problem is tatar on his line. After 5 games of losing it couldnt be anymore clear that they have zero chemistry. Thats where coaching needs to come in and change something up.

Tatar-neilson-larkin

AA- zetty-nyquist

Abby-helm-mantha

Sheahan-glendening-ott

Kronwall-smith

Dekeyser-green

Oulette- sproul

[HadThomasVokounOnFortSt 878]

The biggest problem is ******* holland. Get rid of him. Blashill isn't far behind at all now either. 

[Dabura 12,228]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

I hope management is scouting the top ranked draft picks this season

#BeCraptastic4NolanPatrick

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

Didn't watch it because I had it recorded for later, but it was spoiled anyway. Can't say I'm sad, I was on the fence about watching anymore games for a while unless a real change happened, but now I'm sure. It's not worth the stress lol. It's supposed to be fun, but I can't cheer for sheer incompetence.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

Another uninspiring effort from a dull team.

[sjr2012 439]

really are we surprised though? we knew this team was going to be rough around the edges without a upgrade on defense and nothing so far has suprised me except are 6 game winning streak i think we overcompensated on that but i still support them even if we go to the basement i think most wings fans are alittle too spoiled and think we need to be a cup contender every year but i truly think our time is up for awhile we will for sure be back but for the meantime enjoy the wins that come and hope for the best no matter what i love this forum

Edited November 7, 2016 by sjr2012

[frankgrimes 1,836]

6 minutes ago, sjr2012 said:

really are we suprised though? we knew this team was going to be rough around the edges without a upgrade on defense and nothing so far has suprised me except are 6 game winning streak i think we overcompensated on that but i still support them even if we go to the basement i think most wings fans are alittle too spoiled and think we need to be a cup contender every year but i truly think our time is up for awhile we will for sure be back but for the meantime enjoy the wins that come and hope for the best no matter what i love this forum

Buffalo, Winnipeg, Toronto, Edmonton what do they all have in common? They are bad but fans LOVE watching them because they have (super)stars and one even a generational McJesus on them.

McDavid 1st overall,  Nurse (always wanted to have that guy) 7th overall, Hopkins 1st overall, Adam Larsson 4 overall...that's nowadays the range top 10 range where you have to pick because there is no more hidding gems in Europa by being the only team that has their scouts there for the full year.

A basement finish and then getting Nolan or Liljegren is exactly what this team needs. Sure, it's not a given but even a 4 overall is still much better than all the positions the Wings have drafted before. There is no shame in admitting the rebuild on the fly has failed. That Nielsen contract is of to a great start *lol*

BUT it still to early for any predictions it's not even the 20 game mark right now. But yeah watching the Oilers play is like watching a sleeping juggernut getting closer and closer to wake up and when that happens watch out NHL.

Wings need to have something better to sell before going into the new arena than a meaningless streak so a great pick would be a start.

Edited November 7, 2016 by frankgrimes
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[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

I'm just disappointed that our GDTs are only 4 pages long and maybe 7 at the most?  Fans already giving up on this team? 

[sjr2012 439]

3 hours ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

I'm just disappointed that our GDTs are only 4 pages long and maybe 7 at the most?  Fans already giving up on this team? 

true fans stick to them no matter what BANDWAGONERS well...........

[DaWingsin071 4]

This team is a drag to watch. Here's my lineup. To hell with these so called vets.

Zetterberg, Nielsen, Nyquist

Vanek. Larkin, Mantha

Helm, Abby, AA

Callahan, Bertuzzi,  Ott

 

D Pairings

Kronwall. Dekeysesr

Green, Sproul

Oulette, Smith

 

[wingfan1991 221]

1 minute ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

I'm just disappointed that our GDTs are only 4 pages long and maybe 7 at the most?  Fans already giving up on this team? 

True been noticing the decline for a while now.. lots of reasons though I can come up with. Anyways 6-2 with Vanek he goes down and it's 4 straight losses 6-6... just saying he seems to make a world of a difference to this team! Hurry up and get back... p.s. defense is the worst in league said it a million times needs major overhaul! Keep only Green.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

1 minute ago, wingfan1991 said:

True been noticing the decline for a while now.. lots of reasons though I can come up with. Anyways 6-2 with Vanek he goes down and it's 4 straight losses 6-6... just saying he seems to make a world of a difference to this team! Hurry up and get back... p.s. defense is the worst in league said it a million times needs major overhaul! Keep only Green.

I'd keep DeKeyser too.  I'm not ready to give up on him.  He's just not a top pairing player.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

2 minutes ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

I'm just disappointed that our GDTs are only 4 pages long and maybe 7 at the most?  Fans already giving up on this team? 

Anyone who watched the Lions game probably didn't want their elation to disappear by watching the Wings

Seriously though, we aren't a very good team. Goal tending is the only reason we sit where we sit. Just like last year, we can’t score and the defense can’t transition the puck. There’s no reason why Marchenko should be playing over Sproul or Ouellet. Continuing to trod out the OMG line and watch them get crushed is bad coaching. And speaking of bad coaching, our PP units could use some work. Who’d have guessed we’d miss Vanek so much?

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

2 minutes ago, DaWingsin071 said:

This team is a drag to watch. Here's my lineup. To hell with these so called vets.

Zetterberg, Nielsen, Nyquist

Vanek. Larkin, Mantha

Helm, Abby, AA

Callahan, Bertuzzi,  Ott

 

D Pairings

Kronwall. Dekeysesr

Green, Sproul

Oulette, Smith

 

Hey wth right?  I'm on board with those lines haha.

[Wingnut1989 165]

Not much to be excited about with this team lately. I Watch cause i'm a diehard fan watched since grade school in the early 90's. Not much buzz going around with this team. Our play this year has been mediocre at best. We look lost out there, Terrible passing and zero chemistry. But i'll never give up on this team.

[kliq 3,763]

2 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

A basement finish and then getting Nolan or Liljegren is exactly what this team needs. Sure, it's not a given but even a 4 overall is still much better than all the positions the Wings have drafted before. There is no shame in admitting the rebuild on the fly has failed. That Nielsen contract is of to a great start *lol*

I dont see how you can say anything has failed. The entire concept of "rebuilding on the fly" is icing a competitive team (which we have sitting tied for the wild card) while re-building for the future. IF the rebuild fails, we will know if a few years if our young guns (Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, Sproul etc.) are not able to lead this team back into contention.

If you want to argue that this team is not that good in the moment, sure you have a strong argument. But to say anything has failed is way way way to premature. The Leafs also sit with 13 points, does this mean their re-build failed? Of course not. Re-builds take time. As far as the "on the fly" part, well if we finish the season at the bottom of the standings, I will fully admit that aspect failed. If we squeak into the playoffs again, it worked.

I have said it a million times and I will say it again, we are not as good as our 6 game winning streak led some to believe, but we are not as bad as our 5 game losing streak is leading some to believe. The reality, RIGHT NOW we are an average team that will likely just get into the playoffs, or barely not make it.

I have gone on record in saying I like the rebuilding on the fly philosophy as I do not want to tank and I stand behind that, but I wish the ratio of kids to vets was a little more in the favor of of the kids.

[joesuffP 1,746]

28 minutes ago, kliq said:

I dont see how you can say anything has failed. The entire concept of "rebuilding on the fly" is icing a competitive team (which we have sitting tied for the wild card) while re-building for the future. IF the rebuild fails, we will know if a few years if our young guns (Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, Sproul etc.) are not able to lead this team back into contention.

If you want to argue that this team is not that good in the moment, sure you have a strong argument. But to say anything has failed is way way way to premature. The Leafs also sit with 13 points, does this mean their re-build failed? Of course not. Re-builds take time. As far as the "on the fly" part, well if we finish the season at the bottom of the standings, I will fully admit that aspect failed. If we squeak into the playoffs again, it worked.

I have said it a million times and I will say it again, we are not as good as our 6 game winning streak led some to believe, but we are not as bad as our 5 game losing streak is leading some to believe. The reality, RIGHT NOW we are an average team that will likely just get into the playoffs, or barely not make it.

I have gone on record in saying I like the rebuilding on the fly philosophy as I do not want to tank and I stand behind that, but I wish the ratio of kids to vets was a little more in the favor of of the kids.

I agree with you mostly but watching the leafs and watch the wings is a lot different. This team has no direction until we have someone on D to be excited about. I will say Holland could not have possibly predicted how every defense prospect was going to bomb. Is that bad drafting or bad luck idk but it's a little ridiculous. We have failed to draft an impact top 4 since kronwall. That's why we're a bad hockey team in 2016

[kliq 3,763]

5 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

I agree with you mostly but watching the leafs and watch the wings is a lot different. This team has no direction until we have someone on D to be excited about. I will say Holland could not have possibly predicted how every defense prospect was going to bomb. Is that bad drafting or bad luck idk but it's a little ridiculous. We have failed to draft an impact top 4 since kronwall. That's why we're a bad hockey team in 2016

I was just using the Leafs as an example, I agree we are taking a much different path and look much different.

You're not wrong about the D. I would have to say it is likely due to a combination of bad drafting, bad development, and bad luck. The only other thing I would throw in there is that the Wings have always been very reluctant to play some young defenseman on the main roster. This year is a perfect example as I dont know if a single fan wants to see a guy like Sproul sitting in the press box. You are never going to develop unless you actually play.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I dont see how you can say anything has failed. The entire concept of "rebuilding on the fly" is icing a competitive team (which we have sitting tied for the wild card) while re-building for the future. IF the rebuild fails, we will know if a few years if our young guns (Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, Sproul etc.) are not able to lead this team back into contention.

If you want to argue that this team is not that good in the moment, sure you have a strong argument. But to say anything has failed is way way way to premature. The Leafs also sit with 13 points, does this mean their re-build failed? Of course not. Re-builds take time. As far as the "on the fly" part, well if we finish the season at the bottom of the standings, I will fully admit that aspect failed. If we squeak into the playoffs again, it worked.

I have said it a million times and I will say it again, we are not as good as our 6 game winning streak led some to believe, but we are not as bad as our 5 game losing streak is leading some to believe. The reality, RIGHT NOW we are an average team that will likely just get into the playoffs, or barely not make it.

I have gone on record in saying I like the rebuilding on the fly philosophy as I do not want to tank and I stand behind that, but I wish the ratio of kids to vets was a little more in the favor of of the kids.

1. This team needed a rebuild since ******* 2012, when sanct Nick retired and it has only been downhill since then that's a fact

2. Since you keep bringing up these guys which one of them has true star potential? Larkin (maybe), Sproul might turn into a solid third pairing guy with the occasional second pairing time again far from star or even top pairing potential. Mantha needs to get a real chance I think we can all agree on personally I believe he could be a great sniper with great size in a top 6 role down the line. AA has tremendous speed, good hands but lacks I would be very very surprised if he ever turns into a top 6 center. I'm sorry but Larkin alone won't lead this team back into contention. Mrazek ? A guy who still hasn't figured out how to be a consistent starter let's see it first shall we?

And now compare that to the young guns on Toronto: Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, Marner (again all top 10 picks) and a few complementary players like Zaitsev, Hyman that's a pretty good start for a rebuild and why did they do it? Because Burkes rebuild on the fly failed and Shanahan knew the team needed a new vision. Will the Leafs make the playoffs? Of course not but their fans are excited about the future as they should be with a lot of highend talent.

3. Put yourself into the shoes of the PR gurus for this team what's easier to sell for the new building. 26 years of playoff hockey with a future that (maybe) has one star or a future with a guy like Patrick, Lilejegren, Foote or Vilardi.

How can I say that the rebuild on the fly has failed? Well instead of improving and giving the young guns the chance to sink or swim, Holland priortized the streak and kept signing veterans that don't help in the longrun and still the team got annually worse. If that's not an indication for a failed rebuild on the fly what else is?

4. I agree with the bolded part and it's way too early to make any predictions but the truth is this: 6 Wins against 7 losses right now that's not a good start. Again way too early but it should be a t least a bit concerning for Holland because he is the guy that build this roster. Also I've mentioned going through a win streak, then a losing streak repeat is the definition of an average team but once L > W every team should start thinking about the draft instead of the playoffs. Do I like that system? Well obviously no because it awards being bad but it IS the current system and the only way to build a contender.

5. I know you don't like real rebuilds nobody does but when there are no other options, there isn't much a team can do. This time the Wings don't have the luxury to throw the bank at a superstar (if they become available), nor are they the prime destination they once were...so hoping for a pick in the 15+ range to turn out better than expected because they always do right? is like taking part in high frequency trading  you could cash in but in most cases you are going to lose a lot of money.

6. Said it before and say it again the Predators do a tremendous job finding and developing top defensive players why just throw the bank at their scouts and bring some of them in?

 

[ami 273]

obvious word of the game:

impotent
[im-puh-tuh nt]

adjective
1. not potent; lacking power or ability.
2. utterly unable (to do something).
3. without force or effectiveness.
4. lacking bodily strength or physically helpless.
5. (of a male, excluding #52 Ericsson) unable to attain or sustain a penile erection.

Good news: they still seem to have a desire. it would've been much worth if the didn't.

[kliq 3,763]

52 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

1. This team needed a rebuild since ******* 2012, when sanct Nick retired and it has only been downhill since then that's a fact

2. Since you keep bringing up these guys which one of them has true star potential? Larkin (maybe), Sproul might turn into a solid third pairing guy with the occasional second pairing time again far from star or even top pairing potential. Mantha needs to get a real chance I think we can all agree on personally I believe he could be a great sniper with great size in a top 6 role down the line. AA has tremendous speed, good hands but lacks I would be very very surprised if he ever turns into a top 6 center. I'm sorry but Larkin alone won't lead this team back into contention. Mrazek ? A guy who still hasn't figured out how to be a consistent starter let's see it first shall we?

And now compare that to the young guns on Toronto: Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, Marner (again all top 10 picks) and a few complementary players like Zaitsev, Hyman that's a pretty good start for a rebuild and why did they do it? Because Burkes rebuild on the fly failed and Shanahan knew the team needed a new vision. Will the Leafs make the playoffs? Of course not but their fans are excited about the future as they should be with a lot of highend talent.

3. Put yourself into the shoes of the PR gurus for this team what's easier to sell for the new building. 26 years of playoff hockey with a future that (maybe) has one star or a future with a guy like Patrick, Lilejegren, Foote or Vilardi.

How can I say that the rebuild on the fly has failed? Well instead of improving and giving the young guns the chance to sink or swim, Holland priortized the streak and kept signing veterans that don't help in the longrun and still the team got annually worse. If that's not an indication for a failed rebuild on the fly what else is?

4. I agree with the bolded part and it's way too early to make any predictions but the truth is this: 6 Wins against 7 losses right now that's not a good start. Again way too early but it should be a t least a bit concerning for Holland because he is the guy that build this roster. Also I've mentioned going through a win streak, then a losing streak repeat is the definition of an average team but once L > W every team should start thinking about the draft instead of the playoffs. Do I like that system? Well obviously no because it awards being bad but it IS the current system and the only way to build a contender.

5. I know you don't like real rebuilds nobody does but when there are no other options, there isn't much a team can do. This time the Wings don't have the luxury to throw the bank at a superstar (if they become available), nor are they the prime destination they once were...so hoping for a pick in the 15+ range to turn out better than expected because they always do right? is like taking part in high frequency trading  you could cash in but in most cases you are going to lose a lot of money.

6. Said it before and say it again the Predators do a tremendous job finding and developing top defensive players why just throw the bank at their scouts and bring some of them in?

I'll do my best to respond:

1) Hindsight is 20/20, its very rare for teams to just start rebuilding/tanking when they are still considered a top team in the league.

2) I believe that Larkin and Mrazek have superstar potential, I feel that AA has potential to be our 2C (you said he lacks......lacks what?) and Mantha I believe has potential to be a top line winger. I am not sure why you are so hard on Mrazek, I dont believe he is elite right now, but I think he definitely has the potential to be a top goaltender in this league, he shows flashes and has something special. You said it best, our D is junk, yet he still has come off as good as he has, he just needs consistency and better D in front of him.  Its very early to tell, but Svechnikov seems like he also has alot of potential, possibly a top 6 guy (too early to tell though). Why does it upset you when people have optimism with our prospects? I get some overrate them, but you seem to always put down our prospects any time you get a chance, is it because you feel a top guy must be drafted in the top 5?

On D we are hurting, I think DD can be a very good #2, but we lack a number #1 This is why I really want Trouba. I believe Sproul has top 4 upside, top 6 downside, XO/Marchenko are likely third pairing guys, Russo, Saarijarvi, Cholowski, I dont know too much about them as I have never seen them play, but we will have to wait and see, hence the re-build. D are very hard to draft, most top D are not even drafted high, it usually takes them a lot longer to develop.

3) I get you are not a fan of the rebuild on the fly, but again, the entire concept of it is to keep the team competitive while you re-build. The Wings may fail at the "keeping competitive" part of it, but the re-build part will take a couple years to assess if it was a success or a failure most based on how the guys in #2 end up panning out. If they flop, its a fail. If they succeed, its a success. I really dont understand the debate here. This isnt even me defending it, this is me just saying it like it is. If it was up to me I would be doing things slightly differently and I would be playing more of the kids.

5) I dont like tank jobs, I have seen this fail so many times in my life and for every 1 that succeeds (ie. a Pittsburgh, LA, or Chicago) there seems to be 5 that flop (ie. Arizona, Columbus, Atlanta, Buffalo, Edmonton (pre McDavid), Carolina, Colorado etc.). I wonder how many top 5 picks these teams have had combined since 2006 with NOTHING to show for it, and I dont mean just no cups, but missing the playoffs year after year after year.

6) 100% agree, I'll give the Preds their props. They were my cup pick at the start of the year.

I just want to add, you mentioned Babcock earlier. I have never put down Babs as a coach. I have said he is overrated but not because I think he is bad or even not great. I think he is a top coach along with others, but sometimes the narrative on here is that he is an entire level above all (which is overrating him). Babs leaving hurt us, and I wish he was still here as with Babs I think we could be much better and that it would increase the probability of becoming contenders sooner then later.

 

[Juklitz 85]

1/ But it was quite clear that Rafalski/Lidstrom´s exit will be a major impact for our D, like nothing in previous two decades in comparison. And it was predicted and Holland was NOT prepared, even later then we basically didn´t draft more Ds. And I don´t think that since 2011 Wings were somehow contending. Still, Holland´s moves instantly closed all real rebuilding options when gave a long-term to Kroner, BigE, signed KQ, White, Coala...ovo, 4yrs ´bridge´ to Kindl etc. I do understand the plan and point, but all of that just failed. 

3/ but what is the exact timing of this rebuild-on-fly process? Ok, let´s say it started in 2011. Now it´s 16/17 season and team is constantly falling down and our youngster kick-off plan is still slow. Leafs started like two-three years ago and already have some real future shapes. 

Who actually really succeeded last time with rebuild in a fly? 

[marcaractac 3,963]

I can deal with being a bad team and losing if it is to build towards the future. But the fact that it is happening to rely on the vets and not with the youth getting an opportunity to learn is what is pissing me off. Management has to be able to see that this roster is awful. But once again it is that ******* streak holding everything back. 

[LeftWinger 5,065]

This is all Datsyuk's fault.  

[marcaractac 3,963]

16 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

This is all Datsyuk's fault.  

 

I have no doubt Holland will spin it that way to try and save face.