Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

[kliq 3,763]

18 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

If 91 never gets put up there, it's a classic example of personal feelings over undeniable reasoning. There's a good argument that they don't win any of the first 3 Cups without Fedorov. If it never goes up, they may as well give out the #16 again, because that's how stupid it would be to not put 91 up there.

Not even close to the same thing. Example one is a guy who seemed to do everything he could to get out of Detroit (or at least that is what the perception is), example two is a guy who never wore another teams jersey and had his career ended short in a tragic accident. His number is not worn out of respect.

I agree Fedorov should have his jersey retired, but as dumb as I think one extreme of the argument is, to completely dismiss the other side is just as bad. It's not JUST personal feelings, its lack of loyalty to the organization. Fedorov did choose to leave in the prime of his career while we were still contenders, this is usually something that prevents a player from having their jersey retired like it or not.

Edited April 1, 2017 by kliq

[sputman 1,268]

Call it petty or whatever, but I think that anyone who tried very hard to leave the team should not have their number retired, and that would include Fedorov and Datsyuk. Which sucks for Zetterberg, because I feel if you retire one you have to retire the other, and I don't think they'd retire Z and not D because that would be an obvious slight and create a maelstrom of debate.

[kickazz 5,459]

If there's any confusion, my post to bump this thread quotes Holland saying that "Zetterberg's jersey will go on the rafters". If this really is Holland's quote then it's 100% that #40 will be retired. 

The question now remains of #91, #13, #30

Edited April 1, 2017 by kickazz

[kliq 3,763]

17 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

http://detroitsportsrag.com/the-guilt-of-pavel-datsyuk-and-the-innocence-of-sergei-fedorov/

 

Fedorov did not try to leave Detroit.  He wanted different terms.  Ilitch pulled the offer.  He left.  

He signed an offer sheet in 98.....is that not trying to leave?

[kickazz 5,459]

10 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Holland decides this?

Does it matter? He's making a public statement and it's probably one that the owners share. You would be a fool to think Holland is saying something against ownership opinion. 

35 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

http://detroitsportsrag.com/the-guilt-of-pavel-datsyuk-and-the-innocence-of-sergei-fedorov/

Jeff Moss is a clown. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Just now, Jonas Mahonas said:

Yah, it matters.  Holland is a clown.  And happy saturday to you too, Mr. Sunshine.  Someone pee in your cheerios?

Great rebuttal. I don't think you understand the relationship between the GM and ownership and PR. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Nobody did Apollo, that's why you got put down by Ivan. You gotta know when to throw the damn towel. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by kickazz

[puckloo39 5,686]

Only #40.  Same reason to raise it as for #5. 

[kickazz 5,459]

8 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

If 91 never gets put up there, it's a classic example of personal feelings over undeniable reasoning. There's a good argument that they don't win any of the first 3 Cups without Fedorov. If it never goes up, they may as well give out the #16 again, because that's how stupid it would be to not put 91 up there.

Well for for argument's sake, I'm starting to think that jersey retirement is completely subjective. The owners get to decide. And Fedorov managed to piss off the owners not once but twice. 

So in essence it seems as  though you have to:

1. Be a HoF worthy player and possibly put up a lot of significant numbers for the franchise. 

2. Be on the owner's good side, it's his/her franchise at the end of the day.

Edited April 1, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 5,090]

...and that's why it's stupid. Fedorov help make this team the champion it was throughout the 90's into the 2000's. Without him, NO WAY do we have the winning percentage that we had. He was a Hart Trophy winner, the same year he was a Selke Award winner. Then won another Selke. Led the team throughout the playoffs plenty of times. Ranks among the leaders STILL in damn near every important category. Still to this day, he was the biggest single game changer they've ever had. He could take over a game with one play and then he was unstoppable.

He didn't try his hardest to leave twice...he was told to explore the market if you think you're worth it, and looked what happened, they matched an offer, so obviously at that time they thought they needed him more than however many 1st round picks they'd receive.  The second time, they got mad because he wouldn't sign a deal in December, then when he settled his divorce and hired a new agent, he want to sign the deal and they pulled it and offered him less years which resulted in less money. The guy was having huge personal issues and they got mad because he wouldn't put them aside and sign a contract, all he did was ask them to wait until things got sewn up.

[kickazz 5,459]

Regardless, he still pissed em off for the offer sheet. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I think Fedorov will be up there. I don't think it's a sure thing, but time heals most wounds. Just listen to all the reflections on the streak, Feds is such a huge part of the 90s story.

Maybe not soon. I think it's 9 years from franchise centennial - That could be a time to retire some of the numbers that have been neglected. Also, they'll probably be very few people left that had any part in contract disputes.

I know the Wings have different standards, but, hell, Habs even retired Roy despite the fact he asked for the trade in such a fashion. It's about acknowledging those iconic players that make you frachise what it is - old grudges shouldn't get in the way.

Edited April 1, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

Good point about Roy and the Habs. Although to be honest Montreal seemed as though they were mostly at fault for the Roy situation. He was left in goal and humiliated and the fans boo'd him during the game. That's public humiliation at its finest. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

...He didn't try his hardest to leave twice...he was told to explore the market if you think you're worth it, and looked what happened, they matched an offer, so obviously at that time they thought they needed him more than however many 1st round picks they'd receive.  The second time, they got mad because he wouldn't sign a deal in December, then when he settled his divorce and hired a new agent, he want to sign the deal and they pulled it and offered him less years which resulted in less money. The guy was having huge personal issues and they got mad because he wouldn't put them aside and sign a contract, all he did was ask them to wait until things got sewn up.

While we'll never know for sure all the details from either side, this isn't really accurate.

In 97, he was reportedly offered $11M for 2 years, which would have kept him as one of the highest players in the league. It was certainly a reasonable offer. He didn't like it and at one point said he didn't want to play for Detroit again. Offer sheet from Carolina worked out to $6.3M/yr for 6 years. Probably cost him money in the long run (but since most of it was paid up front, it was probably worth it to him). 

In 02, the two sides were still negotiating until just before the playoffs. The Wings' offer at some point went from $10Mx5 to $10Mx4. Most likely that was because it had become increasingly obvious that the next CBA was going to include a salary cap. He ended up signing for $8Mx5. 

Quote from Fedorov: ''It's been a wonderful ride, but everybody in life at some point has to change direction or place or time, and this is absolutely normal for me to change and move on.''

One could conclude that he did in fact want to leave, or even that he was a diva bitter that the Wings didn't think the world revolved around him.

Bottom line is twice the Wings offered him fair deals that would have made him one of the highest paid players in the league, and twice he turned them down to sign with another team. It's a mark against him. By itself, it shouldn't be enough to keep his jersey out of the rafters, and ultimately I don't think it will. But let's not pretend he's a victim here, even if his number doesn't go up. 

 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Fedorov was one of the best players in the NHL in his prime.  The fact that he wanted to get out of Detroit for so long tarnishes him a bit, but I think eventually 91 goes up.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are linked together, I think either they both go up or neither does.  Osgood is #2 in just about every category in Wings all time goal tending stats and is pretty under rated.  Too many people put all of his success on the team in front of him, but then heap praise on Roy, Brodeur, Fuhr, et. al. ignoring the fact that they put up their numbers behind great teams as well.  Yes, Osgood let in some bad goals, but so did everyone else (Patty Wah Statue of Liberty play anyone?) and when he did, he came back even stronger.  That OT goal from center ice against Dallas was followed by a shutout.  He still doesn't go up though.

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

 

He didn't try his hardest to leave twice...

He turned down a big deal, held out, and signed an offer sheet from a non playoff team designed to make it extremely difficult for Detroit to match after saying he'd never play for Detroit again, then as soon as he hit UFA status he bolted to somewhere he could be the man.  He wanted out.  

[kickazz 5,459]

46 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are linked together, I think either they both go up or neither does.  

True,  but I think this season Zetterberg has completely separated himself from the Magic Man. He's getting a lot more recognition this year individually than ever before. If he's lucky he may play out his contract and have another couple of good years like this year. Which would probably makes his case stronger. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by kickazz

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

2 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I think Fedorov will be up there. I don't think it's a sure thing, but time heals most wounds. Just listen to all the reflections on the streak, Feds is such a huge part of the 90s story.

Maybe not soon. I think it's 9 years from franchise centennial - That could be a time to retire some of the numbers that have been neglected. Also, they'll probably be very few people left that had any part in contract disputes.

I know the Wings have different standards, but, hell, Habs even retired Roy despite the fact he asked for the trade in such a fashion. It's about acknowledging those iconic players that make you frachise what it is - old grudges shouldn't get in the way.

How many jersey's has Montreal up in the rafters??

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

5 minutes ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

How many jersey's has Montreal up in the rafters??

True, they do have a lot. It's 18 players, but 15 numbers. They do have different different standards, but I'm not sure I would argue against any of them being retired.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

...and that's why it's stupid. Fedorov help make this team the champion it was throughout the 90's into the 2000's. Without him, NO WAY do we have the winning percentage that we had. He was a Hart Trophy winner, the same year he was a Selke Award winner. Then won another Selke. Led the team throughout the playoffs plenty of times. Ranks among the leaders STILL in damn near every important category. Still to this day, he was the biggest single game changer they've ever had. He could take over a game with one play and then he was unstoppable.

He didn't try his hardest to leave twice...he was told to explore the market if you think you're worth it, and looked what happened, they matched an offer, so obviously at that time they thought they needed him more than however many 1st round picks they'd receive.  The second time, they got mad because he wouldn't sign a deal in December, then when he settled his divorce and hired a new agent, he want to sign the deal and they pulled it and offered him less years which resulted in less money. The guy was having huge personal issues and they got mad because he wouldn't put them aside and sign a contract, all he did was ask them to wait until things got sewn up.

Yeah Feds was instrumental to some of those championships... so was Shanahan, so was Murphy, so was Hull, so was Holmstrom, so was McCarty etc etc

Being good isnt enough. Winning a cup isnt enough.

You have to play all of, or nearly all of, your career here. Bailing for money or mother Russia pretty soundly ends that.

This isnt Montreal. We have standards.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

So, I inadvertently brought up this side issue and I was curious and bored so I looked into it. And... I'm going to completely contradict myself: I really don't think our standards are different than the Habs.

All of their 18 players (15 retired numbers):

- won multiple cups with the Habs and are in the Hall of Fame

- won multiple major individual awards (G: Vezina, F-Hart, Art Ross, D-Norris) 

- played all but a few years of their career with the Habs (except goalies: Plante has 6 years away and Roy, but then again, Sawchuck had 7 years away - it is less likely for goalies to spend their career with 1 team) 

Except these player that don't meet all those high standards:

- Henri Richard: HOF, 11 cups (most of anyone), Lifetime Hab, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up. 

- Bob Gainey: HOF: 5 Cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe+4 Selkes, Captain for 8 years -  Yeah, We'd put him up. 

- Yvan Cournoyer: HOF, 10 cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up.

- Serge Savard: HOF, 8 Cups, Only 2 years away from Habs, Conn Smyth+Masterton, Captain for 2 years. was also GM for 12 years (winning 2 cups) - yeah we'd put him up.

- Emile Bouchard: HOF, 4 cups, Lifetime Hab, Captain for 8 years. - probably the smallest case of all the retired players, but I still think we'd put him up 

So, I really don't think they've put any numbers that could be comparable to the "should they, shouldn't they?" variety like Osgood, Shanahan, Holmstrom. And none show a lower standard than what we've put up. 

Sorry that this is longer than I intended, but I think it's relevant since this debate really comes down to what the standards are and everyone always says that the Wings are different than the rest of the league. Maybe that really isn't the case. From looking around the original six teams, at least, seem to have similar standards (except maybe the Leafs with Clark, Gilmour, etc. or a few sentimental exceptions: Bruins with Terry O'Reilly).

Edited April 2, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

Well steering back to the topic though.

Zetterberg's jersey is going to be retired. Called it. And so did Kliq and a few others. Everyone who called it is a good prognosticator. Pat yourselves on the back.  

Of course nothing is certain until it's actually done. For all we know Zetterberg could come out with a Mitch Albom interview tomorrow and say he's going back to Sweden to be with his dad then all of a sudden Christopher Illitch and mom let Holland know to give the media a different story about jersey retirement. 

[GMRwings1983 8,802]

23 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Well steering back to the topic though.

Zetterberg's jersey is going to be retired. Called it. And so did Kliq and a few others. Everyone who called it is a good prognosticator. Pat yourselves on the back.  

Of course nothing is certain until it's actually done. For all we know Zetterberg could come out with a Mitch Albom interview tomorrow and say he's going back to Sweden to be with his dad then all of a sudden Christopher Illitch and mom let Holland know to give the media a different story about jersey retirement. 

Was this thread started 10 years ago?  Or last year?  

What has changed since last year?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

So, I inadvertently brought up this side issue and I was curious and bored so I looked into it. And... I'm going to completely contradict myself: I really don't think our standards are different than the Habs.

All of their 18 players (15 retired numbers):

- won multiple cups with the Habs and are in the Hall of Fame

- won multiple major individual awards (G: Vezina, F-Hart, Art Ross, D-Norris) 

- played all but a few years of their career with the Habs (except goalies: Plante has 6 years away and Roy, but then again, Sawchuck had 7 years away - it is less likely for goalies to spend their career with 1 team) 

Except these player that don't meet all those high standards:

- Henri Richard: HOF, 11 cups (most of anyone), Lifetime Hab, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up. 

- Bob Gainey: HOF: 5 Cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe+4 Selkes, Captain for 8 years -  Yeah, We'd put him up. 

- Yvan Cournoyer: HOF, 10 cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up.

- Serge Savard: HOF, 8 Cups, Only 2 years away from Habs, Conn Smyth+Masterton, Captain for 2 years. was also GM for 12 years (winning 2 cups) - yeah we'd put him up.

- Emile Bouchard: HOF, 4 cups, Lifetime Hab, Captain for 8 years. - probably the smallest case of all the retired players, but I still think we'd put him up 

So, I really don't think they've put any numbers that could be comparable to the "should they, shouldn't they?" variety like Osgood, Shanahan, Holmstrom. And none show a lower standard than what we've put up. I think it's just that they've had more success than any other franchise. Also, they had special access to Quebec Talent before the draft - the majority of their retired players are from QC and began their careers before the draft. (Pre-60s this was big when the talent pool was smaller and mostly drew from a few parts of Canada) Also, they seem to have kept so many guys for entirety of their careers.

So, maybe the Wings base their standard for jersey retirement on what the Canadiens have done? They are the oldest franchise and were the modal for a long time.

Dont really know enough about the habs to comment. Retiring multiple players to one number is just ridiculous to me.

Ill also say i think its ridiculous to even consider retiring Osgood. 

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Was this thread started 10 years ago?  Or last year?  

What has changed since last year?

Holland's comments that Z's jersey will be retired.

[GMRwings1983 8,802]

15 minutes ago, kliq said:

Holland's comments that Z's jersey will be retired.

I didn't hear that.  When did he say that?  This organization didn't retire Yzerman or Lidstrom's numbers until they actually retired. However, it was well known that those guys would have their jerseys retired someday. Can Holland state affirmatively that Datsyuk would be retired?