signed Darren Helm re-signed: 5 years, $3.85m AAV

[LeftWinger 5,065]

Ugh! Everytime I see this thread....

[kickazz 5,459]

So they finally made the details of Helm's contract public. Darren Helm has a No Trade Clause (NTC). And it's got a lot of details to it.

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2016/9/10/12867420/darren-helm-no-trade-clause-with-the-red-wings-is-weird

Edited September 10, 2016 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

• "Darren Helm’s NTC kicks in immediately and goes through the first three seasons of the deal (through 2018-19) with no modification. Only Helm waiving this clause would allow him to be traded.

If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2018-19 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards on the team in terms of total ice time, then he will have no NTC protection between June 15th of 2019 and the trade deadline of the 2019-20 season (Year four of the deal).

If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2019-20 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards in terms of TOI, then his NTC is void from June 15, 2020 throughout the remainder of the contract (June 30, 2021).

While any NTC probably shouldn't have been included, it was probably insisted upon by Helm's people so that he won't be headed to Vegas.

This quoted section, however, should alleviate some of Dickie's worries about Helm ending up on the 4th line in a few years. The team seems to be worried about that as well and left the option open to trade in that case.

To pre-empt some responses, If he plays himself onto the 4th line, then he might not be tradeable (at least without retaining some salary). It think it would be more due to our prospects taking over, though.

Deal was a year too long and a bit too much, but I'm still glad Helm's back.

Edited September 10, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[LeftWinger 5,065]

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/81292-official-2016-detroit-red-wings-offseason-thread/page-218#entry2685259

Ya, I actually made a quick reference to this on Aug. 31st. But no way did I attempt to list all the details. I just shook my head at it.

Thanks for listing them, but man its ridiculous! I hope they don't play him top 9 minutes and then we can trade him ASAP!

[toby91_ca 620]

But who is going to wan to trade for a $4M 4th liner?

[kliq 3,763]

But who is going to wan to trade for a $4M 4th liner?

Probably the other teams that were interested in Helm when he was about to hit Free Agency. It was reported that he took a discount to stay.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedWings/comments/4qrvts/darren_dreger_on_twitter_regarding_helm_he_took/

[LeftWinger 5,065]

Would've have much rather given Versteeg a pto than sign Helm....just saying.

[toby91_ca 620]

Probably the other teams that were interested in Helm when he was about to hit Free Agency. It was reported that he took a discount to stay.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedWings/comments/4qrvts/darren_dreger_on_twitter_regarding_helm_he_took/

I'd like to understand what teams were offering him more than $20M + no trade clause.....that for a 12-15 goal and 25-30 pt guy does not add up to a discount to me.

[kliq 3,763]

I'd like to understand what teams were offering him more than $20M + no trade clause.....that for a 12-15 goal and 25-30 pt guy does not add up to a discount to me.

According to Darren Dreger Dallas, Boston, Calgary, and Vancouver were all interested and he took a discount to stay in Detroit. Other outlets reported that as well.

I am just passing on what I have read, and its not like Darren Dreger is some kid writing a BLOG, he is pretty reliable.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If he really was offered that much, he should have been allowed to walk, but I don't buy it. As far as what line he should be on, he should be on the checking line right now, never mind in 3 years. Once he is a proven bust as a scoring line player, more than he already has, nobody is going to want to touch him. Ditto for Abdelkader when he doesn't touch 20 goals again. But hey, $10 million for a fourth line isn't too bad, right?

[toby91_ca 620]

According to Darren Dreger Dallas, Boston, Calgary, and Vancouver were all interested and he took a discount to stay in Detroit. Other outlets reported that as well.

I am just passing on what I have read, and its not like Darren Dreger is some kid writing a BLOG, he is pretty reliable.

Oh I know and I agree that Dreger is one of the best, I just think he was fed bogus info and Helm's agent must have made it seem he had good offers from others. It makes zero sense to me. He's a decent player, but is easily replaced....he's the type of player that should be making league average in my opinion.

[kliq 3,763]

If he really was offered that much, he should have been allowed to walk, but I don't buy it. As far as what line he should be on, he should be on the checking line right now, never mind in 3 years. Once he is a proven bust as a scoring line player, more than he already has, nobody is going to want to touch him. Ditto for Abdelkader when he doesn't touch 20 goals again. But hey, $10 million for a fourth line isn't too bad, right?

Out of curiosity, what do you think Dreger's motive is for fabricating this story? If he reported that one team offered more, I could see there being a misunderstanding (ie. bad source), but when its reported 4 + teams were interested and he took a discount to stay with Detroit, why would the entire story be made up/a lie? He's an established reporter who doesn't need to fabricate stories.

This story doesn't scream "conspiracy" either, so I dont know why people are so dismissive of it.

Either way, my point as never if Helm is or isnt worth his contract. My point was when a poster said "who would want him" that there are teams that want him.

I think sometimes posters let their personal feelings of a player cloud their judgement of reality. We are not talking a poll of GM's here where the majority voted that they would sign him to that deal, we are talking 5/30 GM's have interest in Helm at that price or higher, not exactly unfathomable IMO. Bad contracts are given out all the time, its not like this is something exclusive to Holland. Hell, Columbus traded for David Clarkson, you never know what another GM is willing to do.

Oh I know and I agree that Dreger is one of the best, I just think he was fed bogus info and Helm's agent must have made it seem he had good offers from others. It makes zero sense to me. He's a decent player, but is easily replaced....he's the type of player that should be making league average in my opinion.

The thing is, I believe he reported this after Helm signed. What would be the point? If it were before he signed, different story. I think Helm is one of those guys who if he is on a great team, that narrative on him is "great player who does all the little things right, worth every penny" but on a team like Detroit the narrative becomes "ughhh another bad contract for a guy who cant score more then 20 goals".

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Oh I know and I agree that Dreger is one of the best, I just think he was fed bogus info and Helm's agent must have made it seem he had good offers from others. It makes zero sense to me. He's a decent player, but is easily replaced....he's the type of player that should be making league average in my opinion.

League average was 2.58 including entry level deals and RFA. I'd bet Helm's near the average for UFA deals.

[toby91_ca 620]

The thing is, I believe he reported this after Helm signed. What would be the point? If it were before he signed, different story. I think Helm is one of those guys who if he is on a great team, that narrative on him is "great player who does all the little things right, worth every penny" but on a team like Detroit the narrative becomes "ughhh another bad contract for a guy who cant score more then 20 goals".

You're probably right, but a guy on a great team, that does all the little things right, etc., isn't paid as much as Helm is being paid....great teams probably can't afford that because they probably have much more expensive players at the top end and the players doing all the little things right are making $1-3M. 20 goals is a long, long way off for him too, he's never been in shouting distance of 20.

I honestly think the interest was there because of his speed. Everyone places a very high premium on speed in this league, with good reason. There are so many players that have the skill, but just can't make it in the NHL because they lack the skating ability (these are the good AHL players). You have to think that teams are thinking that he's got great speed, so he'll develop the scoring tough....well, I think it's pretty clear that's not coming. There's nothing wrong with that, you can be valuable to a team without scoring 30 goals. I haven't done the research, but i doubt there are many comparables in the league to him and his salary + term. Maybe there is and maybe I'm way off. The NTC was the laugher for me on top of it all.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I didnt say he fabricated it. That doesn't mean his info was correct.

[kickazz 5,459]

I think sometimes posters let their personal feelings of a player cloud their judgement of reality.

And it's been really bad this offseason too. For both fanboying for players and hating on players. Or getting offended when speaking truth about a player/situation.

Edited September 11, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

I wonder how many players in the league who are 3rd liners have NTCs?

[kliq 3,763]

I didnt say he fabricated it. That doesn't mean his info was correct.

Again, if it were one other supposed team that was interested I would see where you are coming from, but its at least 4. I just dont see it, a bit too far fetched for me to believe that he received four incorrect pieces of information.

Again, this is not me saying that Helm deserved/should have been worth the contract, but rather me talking about what his market value was based on interest from other GM's. Huge difference.

Edited September 11, 2016 by kliq

[krsmith17 7,191]

Saying that Helm is overpaid is one thing, and myself along with every single person here have said the same thing. He is overpaid in cap (about $1M too much) as well as in term (a year or two too long). However, to say that Helm (as a player, forget his contract) is "very replaceable" is flat out wrong. A player with his speed, tenacity, forechecking and penalty killing ability has a ton of value to any team, especially in the playoffs. Again, yes he is slightly overpaid, but as long as he remains in the bottom 6, he should prove to be very valuable to the Red Wings for the next 3+ years. Also, I don't see the NTC as anything of significance. It's not like Holland would trade him in the next few years, even if he does become replaceable...

As for the few other teams that were willing to pay Helm even more, I'm sure there were, just like I'm sure close to every team in the league would love to have a Helm on their roster (again, looking at the player, not the contract).

[DickieDunn 2,571]

speed or not, he's a mediocre player. I'd be fine with him for 3 years and under $3 mil. Same with Abdelkader, 3 or 4 at $3.5 or so would be good. Glendening for 2 years at a mil per would be good. But when every free agent who is extended gets too much, it adds up in a hurry and starts causing major problems. One, it limits cap space and flexibility, and two when a good player hits free agency he looks at those guys and wants even morw than he might have been ok with otherwise.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Hypothetical scenarios spoken like facts

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Hypothetical scenarios spoken like facts

They are facts. The Wings went from being on good shape cap wose to having no room. An actual 20 goal scorer is going to look at the contracts grinders got and want max years for significantly more money, that's how value is set. If Abdelkader is worth 7 years 4.25 aav for one 20 goal season, I'm worth 5 mil a year for 7 years for scoring 25.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree with you Dickie, I just don't see the point in constantly bringing up Helm's contract, or others for that matter. Helm is an important piece to this team whether people want to admit that or not. We all would have liked a cheaper, shorter contract, but it's not, and Helm will be valuable player for the next few years. This team is worse without Helm in the lineup, I can't say the same for Miller or Ott or even Vanek...

[kickazz 5,459]

They are facts. The Wings went from being on good shape cap wose to having no room. An actual 20 goal scorer is going to look at the contracts grinders got and want max years for significantly more money, that's how value is set. If Abdelkader is worth 7 years 4.25 aav for one 20 goal season, I'm worth 5 mil a year for 7 years for scoring 25.

That's exactly what a 25 goal scorer is worth actually. Are you not keeping up with today's NHL? This isn't 1999 anymore.

[kliq 3,763]

That's exactly what a 25 goal scorer is worth actually. Are you not keeping up with today's NHL? This isn't 1999 anymore.

Agreed, not to mention Abby isn't being paid what he is being paid solely for goals. Funny how when people are talking about player they like (ie. Fowler) this is brought up, but when its a player they dont like, it becomes all about goals (not you kickazz). Every player on a team has a role, d-man or forward. Abby's role is to play with grit, go in the corners, stick up for teammates etc. and at the same time be a top 50 goal scorer in a league of over 540 players (if you just count 12 forwards/6 d-man per team).

The guy has scored 42 goals over the last two years which puts him just below 50th in the NHL over that time (Oshie is 50th with 45 goals), he is the toughest/grittiest guy that we have, and on this team which is somewhat soft is definitely a player of value. He is easily worth 4.25mil/year. Now, in 2021 and 2022 will he be worth it, probably not, and I do wish that he signed for 5 years but this contract is just the reality of today's NHL.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-2-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

Edited September 11, 2016 by kliq