This hits the nail on the head......

[kickazz 5,459]

WIIM people are raging hard it seems.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

telling the truth isn't raging

[kickazz 5,459]

telling the truth isn't raging

Um yeah it can be lol. You can speak to truth or lies and RAGE. Dictionary.com Frank.

[Aethernum 276]

An impatient fan base that expects a Cup every year is what causes teams like Anaheim to fire respected coaches after four straight division titles. He's absolutely dead on about this: If you expect Detroit to compete for the Cup every single year, then in today's league of parity, you are out of your mind.

Making the playoffs every year is as about as reasonable an expectation as you can get. After that, everything is up for grabs. Look at this year: Maybe you'll be the Tampa Bay Lightning and get an easy first round matchup, or maybe you'll be the Chicago Blackhawks and have to face the St. Louis Blues. Would anyone here be disappointed at a first round exit with the quality of play that we saw in the Chicago/St. Louis series? I seriously hope not. Sometimes it just doesn't fall your way.

I don't disagree with Holland on this.

[CrimsonFlame 424]

It's not even possible for Holland intentional control everything with the wings. What would that even mean? He convinced the league to switch to the salary cap? Holland convinced Rafalski to retire early? He arranged Suter to meet a woman and BFF from Minnesota so that we would miss out on that signing?

He's a poker player trying to deal with the hand dealt. He's trying to make us great again by the way he thinks best with the circumstances of the league. The cap is meant to spread success around - we've fought the economic forces that tear apart success and we're the only team to make the playoffs every year post-lockout.

People need realize that the most likely alternative to our current 5 year dip in success is not trades and Stanley cups - It's the 10 year tank. I can only imagine the blogs that would be written in that situation. I think we'll be contenders in 3 years - we'll all see how Mraz, Larkin, Mantha etc. develop and if we'll be able to find the missing pieces.

Hold on Hold on.

We are 11 (ELEVEN) years removed from the Salary cap being institutied.

We are 5 years removed from Rafalski retiring.

We are 4 years removed from Suter signing with the Wild.

Are people seriously still trying to throw up these excuses? That's pathetic. If you can't adjust to something in 4 years you failed. Period. Let alone 11 years. That's a joke.

An impatient fan base that expects a Cup every year is what causes teams like Anaheim to fire respected coaches after four straight division titles. He's absolutely dead on about this: If you expect Detroit to compete for the Cup every single year, then in today's league of parity, you are out of your mind.

Making the playoffs every year is as about as reasonable an expectation as you can get. After that, everything is up for grabs. Look at this year: Maybe you'll be the Tampa Bay Lightning and get an easy first round matchup, or maybe you'll be the Chicago Blackhawks and have to face the St. Louis Blues. Would anyone here be disappointed at a first round exit with the quality of play that we saw in the Chicago/St. Louis series? I seriously hope not. Sometimes it just doesn't fall your way.

I don't disagree with Holland on this.

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

[Aethernum 276]

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

You are spoiled and you are part of the problem.

[kliq 3,763]

An impatient fan base that expects a Cup every year is what causes teams like Anaheim to fire respected coaches after four straight division titles. He's absolutely dead on about this: If you expect Detroit to compete for the Cup every single year, then in today's league of parity, you are out of your mind.

Making the playoffs every year is as about as reasonable an expectation as you can get. After that, everything is up for grabs. Look at this year: Maybe you'll be the Tampa Bay Lightning and get an easy first round matchup, or maybe you'll be the Chicago Blackhawks and have to face the St. Louis Blues. Would anyone here be disappointed at a first round exit with the quality of play that we saw in the Chicago/St. Louis series? I seriously hope not. Sometimes it just doesn't fall your way.

I don't disagree with Holland on this.

Excellent post. Parity is as strong as I can ever remember. Just look at the first round, everyone was pretty ready crown either LA, Chicago, Anaheim, or Washington the champs before the playoffs started and after 1 round 3 of those 4 teams are gone. It's just a different NHL now a days.

Also, why is this thread even here? A link to a random/ridicoulas article about how Holland is sabotaging this team can go into one of the other million Holland sucks threads on this board.

Edited April 30, 2016 by kliq

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Hold on Hold on.

We are 11 (ELEVEN) years removed from the Salary cap being institutied.

We are 5 years removed from Rafalski retiring.

We are 4 years removed from Suter signing with the Wild.

Are people seriously still trying to throw up these excuses? That's pathetic. If you can't adjust to something in 4 years you failed. Period. Let alone 11 years. That's a joke.

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

You obviously have a ridiculous idea of what "adjusting" means...lol

[Buppy 1,720]

Hold on Hold on.

We are 11 (ELEVEN) years removed from the Salary cap being institutied.

We are 5 years removed from Rafalski retiring.

We are 4 years removed from Suter signing with the Wild.

Are people seriously still trying to throw up these excuses? That's pathetic. If you can't adjust to something in 4 years you failed. Period. Let alone 11 years. That's a joke.

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

Actually, based on historical evidence, expecting to compete for a championship even just once every seven years is asking too much. Most teams will have periodic down times, often lasting that long or much longer. I would also say that we were in fact realistic contenders from 2010 through 2012, and maybe even 2013 given how those playoffs went. Maybe not among the top few favorites, but at least 2nd-tier.

Teams that are good will eventually come down. I would wager that every single team that is a contender this year will not be so every year for the next 15+ years. Most will probably not have more than a few years being near the top.

Things change with time. It's the nature of reality. Being happy that we can contend for the playoffs during our worst stretch in more than two decades doesn't mean we will always be happy with that result. To even suggest it does is short-sighted and foolish. We are near the point now where the old regime is either gone or declined past the point of relevance. We have several young players promising enough to give us reason to think we will start trending back up in the near future. We're still missing a few pieces, even if what we have already pans out, but we're also in better position to gain those pieces.

But whatever. Not going to waste anymore time now. This conversation has been had countless times over the last few years.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Hold on Hold on.

We are 11 (ELEVEN) years removed from the Salary cap being institutied.

We are 5 years removed from Rafalski retiring.

We are 4 years removed from Suter signing with the Wild.

Are people seriously still trying to throw up these excuses? That's pathetic. If you can't adjust to something in 4 years you failed. Period. Let alone 11 years. That's a joke.

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

Buppy and Kliq covered most of what I would have responded to here.

I'm just going to put in the perspective that our cup drought is the 5th shortest. I does show us to be a little spoiled to expect to be winners again so soon after. The cap is designed so that cup are spread around and success is not suppose to be sustainable. It's like MarioCart, where all the cars in last place get all the good s*** in the ? boxes. And when you're in first you get hit by all that good s*** and try to make a go of it with your little banana peel that you receive and hold on long enough to get your prize. Or maybe I drank a little tonight...

But really, 25 other fanbases have a right to be angrier than we are. Plus I think we have a real hope of returning to the elite with Mrazek, Larkin, DK, Tatar, Nyquist, AA etc.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

It ties his hands to a degree, but not what contracts to hand out which he has mis managed on a few occasions.Hence part of his dilemma now.

[CrimsonFlame 424]

Guys the salary cap is still an excuse? EVERY TEAM in the league has to deal with the same damn salary cap. Also he has had eleven years to adjust to it. ELEVEN. You can't keep signing this horrible contracts and making horrible moves and blaming it on the salary cap. That's just ridiculous.

[WingedWheel91 271]

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09. That's now SEVEN YEARS. Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans". You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs? The Maple Leaves. Is that who you want to be?

Here's what your missing:

If we're talking about the Salary Cap era, you can argue that the Red Wings were at (or near the top) of the "Stanley Cup favourites" list from 2007-2013 - Yes, we had a couple of early round exits in that range, but so did many of this years "favourites" in Chicago, Anaheim, and LA... it happens annually in the NHL.

The difference is that when our run began in 2007, almost all of the teams you would consider as front runners this year (Washington, LA, Chicago, St.Louis) did not qualify for the playoffs. If you go in depth, Chicago had a run from 1998-2009 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round... Today they represent the modern day dynasty, and model of success. The LA Kings had a stretch 2002-2012 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round. The Capitals didn't win a round from 1998-2009 - and missed the playoffs entirely in most of those years. The Penguins? They were a ping-pong ball away from bankruptcy and relocation.

What we have accomplished is extremely rare, and something I will always be proud to hear: We haven't missed the playoffs in 25 years. Let's not forget that the teams we envy today, spent (on average) about a decade out of the playoffs, mixed in with the odd 30th place finish. If you understand the salary cap and the fact it's working, how can you complain about the results we've had?

[CrimsonFlame 424]

Here's what your missing:

If we're talking about the Salary Cap era, you can argue that the Red Wings were at (or near the top) of the "Stanley Cup favourites" list from 2007-2013 - Yes, we had a couple of early round exits in that range, but so did many of this years "favourites" in Chicago, Anaheim, and LA... it happens annually in the NHL.

The difference is that when our run began in 2007, almost all of the teams you would consider as front runners this year (Washington, LA, Chicago, St.Louis) did not qualify for the playoffs. If you go in depth, Chicago had a run from 1998-2009 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round... Today they represent the modern day dynasty, and model of success. The LA Kings had a stretch 2002-2012 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round. The Capitals didn't win a round from 1998-2009 - and missed the playoffs entirely in most of those years. The Penguins? They were a ping-pong ball away from bankruptcy and relocation.

What we have accomplished is extremely rare, and something I will always be proud to hear: We haven't missed the playoffs in 25 years. Let's not forget that the teams we envy today, spent (on average) about a decade out of the playoffs, mixed in with the odd 30th place finish. If you understand the salary cap and the fact it's working, how can you complain about the results we've had?

I think you're missing my point entirely.

It's 2016. By the time next season is in full swing it will be 2017. 10 years removed from 2007. Even if you want to argue we were contenders between 2010 and 2013 (which I would say we were not since the results were embarrassed by the sharks and almost swept, almost swept by the sharks again, embarrassed and almost swept by the preds in the first round, and choking away a 3 - 1 lead against the blackhawks,) That will be four years ago. Four years is an eternity in professional sports.

Guys forget about what happened in the distant past. Look at the here and now. The ship is sinking. It has been sinking for a long time. At some point you have to hold leadership responsible. You can't keep looking to the captain and saying "Well he lead us on some successful voyages a long time ago!".

Or let me ask the question this way:

Are you happy with how our season ended this year? What about last year? The year before? What about the one before that one? What about every year going back to 2010? How many of those are you happy with the outcome? The answer should be 0.

[WingedWheel91 271]

I think you're missing my point entirely.

It's 2016. By the time next season is in full swing it will be 2017. 10 years removed from 2007. Even if you want to argue we were contenders between 2010 and 2013 (which I would say we were not since the results were embarrassed by the sharks and almost swept, almost swept by the sharks again, embarrassed and almost swept by the preds in the first round, and choking away a 3 - 1 lead against the blackhawks,) That will be four years ago. Four years is an eternity in professional sports.

Guys forget about what happened in the distant past. Look at the here and now. The ship is sinking. It has been sinking for a long time. At some point you have to hold leadership responsible. You can't keep looking to the captain and saying "Well he lead us on some successful voyages a long time ago!".

Or let me ask the question this way:

Are you happy with how our season ended this year? What about last year? The year before? What about the one before that one? What about every year going back to 2010? How many of those are you happy with the outcome? The answer should be 0.

29/30 teams will be unhappy with their season when it ends this year... Just like last year, just like the year before, and just like the one before that one. No-one is happy when they miss the playoffs, and none of the playoff teams are "happy" when they lose a 7 game series.

Apparently it was my point that was missed, so I'll paraphrase: It's extremely difficult to make the playoffs every year in a salary cap system (Detroit remains the only team to accomplish that). But It's impossible to remain a cup contender for 10, 15, 20 years when you don't have a single top 10 draft pick to turn the generation over with.

What we are witnessing today is that very turnover - most contending teams today (as I pointed out), have taken an average of missing the playoffs for 10 years to complete that process, but it looks like we're right in the middle of it, without missing the playoffs. If that's what you call a "sinking ship" I guess you haven't paid much attention to some of the other re-builds around the league.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Four years is an eternity in professional sports? Seriously? In what sense? I'd love to hear your rationale on this...

"The ship" is not sinking. How difficult is it for some people to understand that we are in the process of a "rebuild"? We are and have been in the process of transitioning from the vets to the youth over the past few seasons, and we've still made the playoffs every season since then. But that's not good enough. People want us to fade from the Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall era to the Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser era all while winning Cups every year along the way. It's completely unrealistic expectations.

I'm sure not a single Red Wing player, management or fan is at all happy with the end result of any of the past five or so seasons. However, the players, management and most reasonable fans understand that there is a process we need to go through in order to get back to the top. Some think we should completely "tank" and others are quite happy to see us continue to make it into the playoffs every year, continue developing the young talent, and eventually we should be in a good enough position to make some moves and turn this team back into a contender. I believe that should start this season. We should make a trade or two to upgrade our defense, continue to transition from the vets to the youth, and squeak into the playoffs for the final year at the Joe. After next season is when we should start to see some huge changes getting ready for the new, highly controversial Little Caesar's Arena. In short, I think this team has a very bright future, I am very happy with where we're headed, but no I am not content with just making the playoffs every season, and neither is anyone else...

[LeftWinger 5,090]

I think you're missing my point entirely.

It's 2016. By the time next season is in full swing it will be 2017. 10 years removed from 2007. Even if you want to argue we were contenders between 2010 and 2013 (which I would say we were not since the results were embarrassed by the sharks and almost swept, almost swept by the sharks again, embarrassed and almost swept by the preds in the first round, and choking away a 3 - 1 lead against the blackhawks,) That will be four years ago. Four years is an eternity in professional sports.

Guys forget about what happened in the distant past. Look at the here and now. The ship is sinking. It has been sinking for a long time. At some point you have to hold leadership responsible. You can't keep looking to the captain and saying "Well he lead us on some successful voyages a long time ago!".

Or let me ask the question this way:

Are you happy with how our season ended this year? What about last year? The year before? What about the one before that one? What about every year going back to 2010? How many of those are you happy with the outcome? The answer should be 0.

While I agree, its been a dry run for us, but if we're looking at the here and now, a lot of ships sank in the 1st round, and 14 ships didn't even make it out of harbor.

Who's loss was worse? Detroit's or Chicago's? Or Boston who didn't even qualify by a ROW. How much fun do you think the fans of Toronto or Edmonton have been having? What about Montreal? They're arguably the best team in our division and due to injury didn't even sniff the playoffs. Look at Florida, you think they are happy about their "ship sinking?"

Sure, you can say that when it comes to a lot of our star players that their ship has sailed, but only one team can put it together enough and keep it going long enough to win. A lot of ships have sunk, but we lost a dingy, Chicago, Anaheim, LA, Florida (soon to be Washington) all lost yachts and battleships.

I for one am looking forward to see if there are, indeed, any needs that are addressed this summer (by addition AND subtraction) and then I will figure out if the ship has enough to sail into the playoffs, or if its taking on water from the start. Right now, we are bilging out the water, but a scorer, some pugnaciousness and a #1 D can right that in a hurry. Doesn't mean the ship won't sink again in April-June, because 15 ships sink in that span every year, 14 more before that. When we are getting #1's 4 out of 5 years, then we can talk about ships being lost at sea instead of the annual sinking that NHL powerhouses do every year, let alone teams that aren't expected to keep sailing through June.

[Jacksoni 418]

While I agree, its been a dry run for us, but if we're looking at the here and now, a lot of ships sank in the 1st round, and 14 ships didn't even make it out of harbor.

Who's loss was worse? Detroit's or Chicago's? Or Boston who didn't even qualify by a ROW. How much fun do you think the fans of Toronto or Edmonton have been having? What about Montreal? They're arguably the best team in our division and due to injury didn't even sniff the playoffs. Look at Florida, you think they are happy about their "ship sinking?"

Sure, you can say that when it comes to a lot of our star players that their ship has sailed, but only one team can put it together enough and keep it going long enough to win. A lot of ships have sunk, but we lost a dingy, Chicago, Anaheim, LA, Florida (soon to be Washington) all lost yachts and battleships.

I for one am looking forward to see if there are, indeed, any needs that are addressed this summer (by addition AND subtraction) and then I will figure out if the ship has enough to sail into the playoffs, or if its taking on water from the start. Right now, we are bilging out the water, but a scorer, some pugnaciousness and a #1 D can right that in a hurry. Doesn't mean the ship won't sink again in April-June, because 15 ships sink in that span every year, 14 more before that. When we are getting #1's 4 out of 5 years, then we can talk about ships being lost at sea instead of the annual sinking that NHL powerhouses do every year, let alone teams that aren't expected to keep sailing through June.

I agree with what you said here. Would like to add that if Mrazek improves, which some of us thinks he does, that alone could sail us into the playoffs despite some flaws. Look at Montreal with/without Price. Crazy.

Have to ask though, you aren't Ken Holland? Not only the points but the buildup is on par on what he said in his exit interview.