Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

What I don't like is that a player can have only 50 turnovers in a season. But all 50 could have been right in front of his net and gave a great scoring opportunity. We need a stat that shows what zone these turnovers were in, and then we can really break it down from there

[DickieDunn 2,571]

https://slappersandstats.com/tag/turnovers/

According to the Isles stats guy there is no official definition of a give away or take away. These stats are extremely subjective.

[poel 28]

What I don't like is that a player can have only 50 turnovers in a season. But all 50 could have been right in front of his net and gave a great scoring opportunity. We need a stat that shows what zone these turnovers were in, and then we can really break it down from there

How do you wanna handle that? This stat is already a joke. You'd need to hire a lot of people with a lot of knowhow to do that. The people who are currently in charge of it already fail to find a common denominator how to score give- and takeaways.

https://slappersandstats.com/tag/turnovers/

According to the Isles stats guy there is no official definition of a give away or take away. These stats are extremely subjective.

Not surprising. Thanks for the links. About time some users here land back on earth. I'm sick of dumb postings like "Helm has just 16 giveaways and therefore he's no turnovermachine but our best defensive forward".

Edited June 22, 2016 by poel

[Dominator2005 558]

Teams have been given the green light to start negotiations with Lucic.

Larkin - Stamkos - Lucic

Abdelakader - Z - Mantha

Tatar - She - AA

Bertuzzi - LG - Martin

DeKe - Trouba/Shatty

Smith - Green

Kronwall - Wideman

Sproul

Mrazek

Nyquist, Jurco and Ouellet for Trouba/Shatty

Dats, Pulks and 2017-3rd rounder to Arizona for Chipchura and 6th rounder

Howard and 2016-2nd for Wideman and 7th

Ericsson to Edmonton for 5th

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

I don't care what anyone says...My eyeballs tell me we need guys who play with more balls...

That's not the eyeball test that's just the ball test

Totally different!

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Thought this was relevant to the Tatar discussion.

Some interesting Quotes from Blashill:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/05/09/blashill-aware-red-wings-change-mix/84168604/

“I would like to have a much better feel for what our lines are going to be,” he said.

“And part of that, and part of what we’ve talked about as a group, is constructing a roster where guys are excited about their roles. Guys that are third-line players are excited to be third-line players. Guys who are fourth-line players are excited to be that.“And you have the right guys getting the right minutes in the top six.

“This year, we just had probably too many similar players that I don’t think we ever found the best combinations for.”

Also, some light on Tatar and Helm's comments at the end of the year:

“We had guys on the third line who wanted to be top-two line guys, and we had so many players in that third spot that we didn’t have enough excitement for the roles that everybody was in,” Blashill said. “I think if guys had a beef on ice time, for me, it would be Tatar and Nyquist more than anybody else,” Blashill said.

I'm glad that he's fully aware that the line combos didn't work last year and that he seems like he's going to change the mix. Tatar and Nyquist should absolutely be separated and be used with playmakers (Z, Larkin, AA) to maximize their potential. He gave some interviews this past year and talked about his plan for Ny-Shea-Tat to be one of the best 3rd lines in the league, but it never worked and shouldn't have seen as much time together as they did. Tat-Shea-Jurco was the 'kid line that work, because it had different elements.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

That's not the eyeball test that's just the ball test

Totally different!

These Balls... Are making me testy!!!

*oops.. forgot you hate Seinfeld.

Edited June 22, 2016 by NerveDamage

[Echolalia 2,961]

Let's call it common sense.

Nobody does. Or do you wanna explain me why Mark Stone is by far the best takeaway player in this league and nobody ever realized it? I can't wait to read your explanation.

If those numbers are true, Mark Stone would be an absolute star. Datsyuk's all time NHL-record for takeaways is 144 but in 82 games.

In all fairness, Mark Stone is a good player. But these numbers are just ridiculous.

Lets not call it common sense. Common sense isn't assuming the eyeball test, which has been widely and repeatedly proven to be one of the least reliable forms of evidence, is a more accurate means of measuring a parameter than another method, which you have no insight to how is even measured. That's rejecting data for intuition and/or emotion, which is the exact opposite of sensical. Incidentally that's the same issue that's plaguing the anti-vaccine movement. Its intuition and emotion based on preconceived notions you have with Tatar, or Helm, or Smith, or whomever else which you are relying on to make interpretations on otherwise quantifiable data, and when the data isn't congruent with your intuition, you reject the data, instead of modify your original hypothesis. If science was run like this our society never would have accepted the sun is the center of our solar system, or that infectious disease is a manifest of microorganisms. I have no issue with being skeptical of information presented to you, but when the purported alternative is supported exclusively by "because that's what I think" then there's a problem.

[Franzine 739]

That's not the eyeball test that's just the ball test

Totally different!

According to Dekeyser, Lucic passes the ball test.

[poel 28]

My ideal lineup for next season:

Abdelkader, Zetterberg, Okposo

Mantha, Hanzal, Radulov

Athanasiou, Larkin, Pulkkinen

Jurco, Sheahan, Glendening

Miller, Nosek

DeKeyser, Trouba

Kronwall, Marchenko

Smith, Sproul

Green

- Trade Datsyuk alongside Tatar, Nyquist and Pick to Arizona for Hanzal

- Offer sheet for Trouba

- Sign Radulov and Okposo via Free Agency

- Buyout Ericsson

[Franzine 739]

According to Dekeyser, Lucic passes the ball test.

Or maybe, according to Lucic, Dekeyser passes the ball test.

[Aethernum 276]

How do you wanna handle that? This stat is already a joke. You'd need to hire a lot of people with a lot of knowhow to do that. The people who are currently in charge of it already fail to find a common denominator how to score give- and takeaways.

Not surprising. Thanks for the links. About time some users here land back on earth. I'm sick of dumb postings like "Helm has just 16 giveaways and therefore he's no turnovermachine but our best defensive forward".

The thing is, even if the statistic isn't well defined or applied consistently, there's no reason to assume the player with fewer giveaways actually had more over the course of the season than the person who was actually listed with more. The only way that would happen is if stat-recorders around the league consistently missed giveaways by Tatar more often than they missed giveaways by other players on our team. Are you prepared to show how that happened?

Look: Are the stats great? No. But you have nothing to back up your original argument that he's a "turnover machine" other than you feel that way. You're just hating on a player because - and you said this yourself - they didn't score as many goals this season as last season (which is true of just about everyone on the team, by the way) and that disappointed you. Tatar isn't loose with the puck by comparison to other players on this team. Criticize his goal-scoring, or his decision-making, but saying he's error-prone with the puck is still wrong. And you have yet to present any evidence to the alternative besides "It's obvious."

Larkin - Stamkos - Lucic

Abdelakader - Z - Mantha

Tatar - She - AA

Bertuzzi - LG - Martin

DeKe - Trouba/Shatty

Smith - Green

Kronwall - Wideman

Sproul

Mrazek

Nyquist, Jurco and Ouellet for Trouba/Shatty

Dats, Pulks and 2017-3rd rounder to Arizona for Chipchura and 6th rounder

Howard and 2016-2nd for Wideman and 7th

Ericsson to Edmonton for 5th

What did somebody say earlier this month? Please calmly put the controller down and slowly step away from the Xbox.

I'm honestly curious - how much do you anticipate Stamkos and Lucic getting paid, in this scenario?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Aethernum

[poel 28]

The thing is, even if the statistic isn't well defined or applied consistently, there's no reason to assume the player with fewer giveaways actually had more over the course of the season than the person who was actually listed with more. The only way that would happen is if stat-recorders around the league consistently missed giveaways by Tatar more often than they missed giveaways by other players on our team. Are you prepared to show how that happened?

Look: Are the stats great? No. But you have nothing to back up your original argument that he's a "turnover machine" other than you feel that way. You're just hating on a player because - and you said this yourself - they didn't score as many goals this season as last season (which is true of just about everyone on the team, by the way) and that disappointed you. Tatar isn't loose with the puck by comparison to other players on this team. Criticize his goal-scoring, or his decision-making, but saying he's error-prone with the puck is still wrong. And you have yet to present any evidence to the alternative besides "It's obvious."

It's exacly the other way around. Tatar's point total was okay to me. It's not my problem. I'm not okay with the way he played. Like "Now I got my contract I don't care whay you say, Blash. If you don't wanna play me in the top 6 then I'm just gonna show everybody that I'm not too motivated to play 3rd line."

Tatar played completely different under Babcock. And again...I'm not talking about his points total. And also, I again wanna tell you that I like Tatar...just like I like Smith. But his work ethic and attitude were terrible last season. He didn't seem to hit anybody all season long and didn't show the slightest bit of the energy he had when playing for Babcock. As a rookie he was an absolute wrecking ball...last season he looked like a lame duck.

The only player I really don't like on this team is Helm. I never liked him in fact. Always was a terrible, dumb player without skills with a bad hockey sense just relying on his speed. But please don't tell me again that I would make unfair judgements of other players because I don't like them. It's just not true.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Panarin Rookie of the year

https://twitter.com/HKY_Tweets/status/745757146130808832

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The thing is, even if the statistic isn't well defined or applied consistently, there's no reason to assume the player with fewer giveaways actually had more over the course of the season than the person who was actually listed with more. The only way that would happen is if stat-recorders around the league consistently missed giveaways by Tatar more often than they missed giveaways by other players on our team. Are you prepared to show how that happened?

Look: Are the stats great? No. But you have nothing to back up your original argument that he's a "turnover machine" other than you feel that way. You're just hating on a player because - and you said this yourself - they didn't score as many goals this season as last season (which is true of just about everyone on the team, by the way) and that disappointed you. Tatar isn't loose with the puck by comparison to other players on this team. Criticize his goal-scoring, or his decision-making, but saying he's error-prone with the puck is still wrong. And you have yet to present any evidence to the alternative besides "It's obvious."

What did somebody say earlier this month? Please calmly put the controller down and slowly step away from the Xbox.

I'm honestly curious - how much do you anticipate Stamkos and Lucic getting paid, in this scenario?

So you don't care if the state is poorly defined and not applied consistently, it backs up your opinion so it's valid. Got it.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Detroit is rumored to be interested in Lucic. As much as I think we need to get heavier and more difficult to play against, throwing a 6-year contract at Lucic would be an idiotic move. I just don't see Holland doing it. I don't see his production rising much, if at all, for the rest of his career. Let Edmonton or Vancouver make that mistake.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Detroit is rumored to be interested in Lucic. As much as I think we need to get heavier and more difficult to play against, throwing a 6-year contract at Lucic would be an idiotic move. I just don't see Holland doing it. I don't see his production rising much, if at all, for the rest of his career. Let Edmonton or Vancouver make that mistake.

Loooch brings entertainment and can act as a bodyguard for some players. If the term is right I wouldn't be against it although he doesn't fix the huge need for a number 1 center and defenseman so yeah.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Detroit is rumored to be interested in Lucic. As much as I think we need to get heavier and more difficult to play against, throwing a 6-year contract at Lucic would be an idiotic move. I just don't see Holland doing it. I don't see his production rising much, if at all, for the rest of his career. Let Edmonton or Vancouver make that mistake.

3 years at under $4.5 per or it's too much

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

Put Lucic in the winged wheel and he's still a piece of s***

[kipwinger 8,675]

A slow piece of s***. But who cares, speed doesn't matter in hockey anyway.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Loooch brings entertainment and can act as a bodyguard for some players. If the term is right I wouldn't be against it although he doesn't fix the huge need for a number 1 center and defenseman so yeah.

He brings a physical element, but the term is not going to be reasonable. He's only going to get slower at this point, and he was noticeably slower than his linemates last year.

3 years at under $4.5 per or it's too much

He'll be looking for at least 5 years at $5 mil + per year.

No way Holland throws the bank at this clown.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Put Lucic in the winged wheel and he's still a piece of s***

Same can be said about a lot of guys who played in Detroit Edited June 23, 2016 by DickieDunn

[Dominator2005 558]

Put Lucic in the winged wheel and he's still a piece of s***

If we can win with piece of s*** then go for it.

If piece of s*** can keep Plekanec quiet (******* Plekanec was acting tough against us) then go for it.

If piece of s*** can beat Brown's ass then go for it.

If piece of s*** can play on same line as Larkin, can skate, hit (pretty well), fight (pretty well), score some goals (20-25 goals)... then I would gladly have that piece of s*** instead any of Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Pulks, Helm playing top six forward.

Lucic address, physicality, size and scoring issues.

[Dominator2005 558]

The thing is, even if the statistic isn't well defined or applied consistently, there's no reason to assume the player with fewer giveaways actually had more over the course of the season than the person who was actually listed with more. The only way that would happen is if stat-recorders around the league consistently missed giveaways by Tatar more often than they missed giveaways by other players on our team. Are you prepared to show how that happened?

Look: Are the stats great? No. But you have nothing to back up your original argument that he's a "turnover machine" other than you feel that way. You're just hating on a player because - and you said this yourself - they didn't score as many goals this season as last season (which is true of just about everyone on the team, by the way) and that disappointed you. Tatar isn't loose with the puck by comparison to other players on this team. Criticize his goal-scoring, or his decision-making, but saying he's error-prone with the puck is still wrong. And you have yet to present any evidence to the alternative besides "It's obvious."

What did somebody say earlier this month? Please calmly put the controller down and slowly step away from the Xbox.

I'm honestly curious - how much do you anticipate Stamkos and Lucic getting paid, in this scenario?

Sorry buddy BUT:

If we trade Dats contract we have $7.5M

Nyquist: $4.75M

Errorson: $4.25M

Howard: $5.29M

So I would expect Stamkos to get $10M and Lucic around $6M

KH is (at least) able to sign our RFA to good contracts.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

If we can win with piece of s*** then go for it.

If piece of s*** can keep Plekanec quiet (******* Plekanec was acting tough against us) then go for it.

If piece of s*** can beat Brown's ass then go for it.

If piece of s*** can play on same line as Larkin, can skate, hit (pretty well), fight (pretty well), score some goals (20-25 goals)... then I would gladly have that piece of s*** instead any of Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Pulks, Helm playing top six forward.

Lucic address, physicality, size and scoring issues.

Lucic: 18g in 14-15, 20g in 15-16

Tatar: 29g in 14-15, 21g in 15-16

Nyquist: 27in 14-15, 17g in 15-16

Lucic played in the top 6 in Boston and L.A. Tat and Ny's numbers dipped on the 3rd line.

Under no circumstance do I want Lucic.

Also, he can't skate and wouldn't be able to keep up with Larkin

Edited June 23, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk