Ovechkin Top 5 Goal Scorer all time?

[Mckinley25 679]

The era has changed, but I wonder where and when that came about? I'd say somewhere at the end of the 1990's and early 2000's.

To me, I don't mind if my superstar player scores tons of points and doesn't play defense. If other guys on his line are defensively responsible and our 3rd line is a good shutdown line, I'm fine with it.

There's plenty of good two-way players in the game. There's only two or three guys in the whole league that seem capable of scoring 50 goals, though. I'll take a special player like Ovechkin over a Toews or Zetterberg.

Well anybody would take an Ovechkin, but you need more than that to win, there's a reason Z and Toews have cups and Ovi doesn't. Part of it is the leadership that those two brought to their respective teams, there's also coaching, defense, goaltending etc., point being an Ovi doesn't necessarily make or break a cup run. Replace Franzen with Ovi we still win, replace Z with Ovi, we might not have. Replace Z with Ovi now maybe we haha.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

If Ovechkin retired today, he'd be the greatest player ever not to win a Cup. Nevermind the fact that he's never even been to the conference finals, much like Marcel Dionne, who's likely right behind him as greatest player not to win one.

His teams just haven't been able to pull through in big moments. He's averaging about a point per game in the playoffs, so you can't really say he's underachieving. Will be interesting to see if he stays in Washington his entire career or chooses to chase a Cup elsewhere.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Its not really about him being more vocal than those guys, its more about play styles

Idk.

Maybe he would be great here, it would be a change of pace from what were used to which could be good in the locker room.

I just don't want younger players thinking they can get away with the things he does.

If the kids were scoring 50 goals a year I wouldn't care what they do.

If Ovi played for the Wings, he would have scored almost 25% of our goals this year during his 53 goals scored this year.

Edited May 26, 2015 by darkmanx

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

If the kids were scoring 50 goals a year I wouldn't care what they do.

If Ovi played for the Wings, he would have scored almost 25% of our goals this year during his 53 goals scored this year.

Ha. IF they were, then absolutely.

But we don't have the luxury of drafting that kind of talent.

We seem reliant on them working hard, to me.

[toby91_ca 620]

Why was Stamkos left off the list of how Ovechkin has dominated competition? He's probably closer than anyone else in terms of GPG over the past while I would think.

In terms of pure goal scoring, I think Ovechkin has been one of the best for sure, so far. However, I do think it's way to early to start projecting where he'd finish. He's still over 400 goals behind Gretzky and I think it's pointless to try and extrapolate. As an example, at the same point in Gretzky's career, he was at over 630 goals and he obviously finished nowhere near 1,200+

Bure was scoring at a higher rate than Ovechkin, but injuries caught up to him. Lindros was up there as well. If Ovechkin stays healthy, I think he'll get up there, but even if healthy, inevitable age will catch up to him and keep him short would be my guess.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Why was Stamkos left off the list of how Ovechkin has dominated competition? He's probably closer than anyone else in terms of GPG over the past while I would think.

In terms of pure goal scoring, I think Ovechkin has been one of the best for sure, so far. However, I do think it's way to early to start projecting where he'd finish. He's still over 400 goals behind Gretzky and I think it's pointless to try and extrapolate. As an example, at the same point in Gretzky's career, he was at over 630 goals and he obviously finished nowhere near 1,200+

Bure was scoring at a higher rate than Ovechkin, but injuries caught up to him. Lindros was up there as well. If Ovechkin stays healthy, I think he'll get up there, but even if healthy, inevitable age will catch up to him and keep him short would be my guess.

Stamkos is at .45GPG, not even close to Ovechkin.

Also we cannot compare Bure, Lindros or any of the other era's to this one. This is by far the hardest era to score in and Ovi continues to make it look easy. If Ovi finishes his career with 750-800 goals, he is easily 2nd best goal scorer to ever play.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Why was Stamkos left off the list of how Ovechkin has dominated competition? He's probably closer than anyone else in terms of GPG over the past while I would think.

In terms of pure goal scoring, I think Ovechkin has been one of the best for sure, so far. However, I do think it's way to early to start projecting where he'd finish. He's still over 400 goals behind Gretzky and I think it's pointless to try and extrapolate. As an example, at the same point in Gretzky's career, he was at over 630 goals and he obviously finished nowhere near 1,200+

Bure was scoring at a higher rate than Ovechkin, but injuries caught up to him. Lindros was up there as well. If Ovechkin stays healthy, I think he'll get up there, but even if healthy, inevitable age will catch up to him and keep him short would be my guess.

Interesting. I've never heard of Lindros referred to as a great goal scorer. I don't think he ever scored 50 goals. Or were you referring to points only?

Stamkos is at .45GPG, not even close to Ovechkin.

Also we cannot compare Bure, Lindros or any of the other era's to this one. This is by far the hardest era to score in and Ovi continues to make it look easy. If Ovi finishes his career with 750-800 goals, he is easily 2nd best goal scorer to ever play.

After who? Gretzky?

You can't forget Bobby Hull, who would have scored more goals had he played in the 80's, and had not went to a different league.

Edited May 26, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[Mckinley25 679]

If Ovechkin retired today, he'd be the greatest player ever not to win a Cup. Nevermind the fact that he's never even been to the conference finals, much like Marcel Dionne, who's likely right behind him as greatest player not to win one.

His teams just haven't been able to pull through in big moments. He's averaging about a point per game in the playoffs, so you can't really say he's underachieving. Will be interesting to see if he stays in Washington his entire career or chooses to chase a Cup elsewhere.

I certainly hope he does win a cup, I think he's amazing, he just needs a better team, and Washington may be on the way to becoming that.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Interesting. I've never heard of Lindros referred to as a great goal scorer. I don't think he ever scored 50 goals. Or were you referring to points only?

After who? Gretzky?

You can't forget Bobby Hull, who would have scored more goals also had he played in the 80's, and had not went to a different league.

I get that but how does that change if Ovi finishes 2nd that he isn't the 2nd best goal scorer of all time because Bobby Hull decided to join the WHA?

Ovi's 65 goals was scored in one of the lowest scoring eras in Hockey, at 2.78GA per game. If you prorate his numbers for the years Gretzky played that year it comes out close to 88 goals, 2nd best ever for a season.

[Dr Dubya 32]

I think Ovi's best scoring days are behind him. I think he'll be trading it in for team success and improved defensive responsibility. Historically speaking, improving defensively hurts of offensive output and I see this happening for Ovi. Their system is in the transition to a more defensively-structured system in WSH and it's yielded very positive results so far.

On top of that, these days players seem to be peaking at a younger age and I can't see him hitting 40 each year throughout this 30's.

I think he's without a doubt a top-5 scorer all time, but I don't think his stats will directly show it.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I think Ovi's best scoring days are behind him. I think he'll be trading it in for team success and improved defensive responsibility. Historically speaking, improving defensively hurts of offensive output and I see this happening for Ovi. Their system is in the transition to a more defensively-structured system in WSH and it's yielded very positive results so far.

On top of that, these days players seem to be peaking at a younger age and I can't see him hitting 40 each year throughout this 30's.

I think he's without a doubt a top-5 scorer all time, but I don't think his stats will directly show it.

I don't see ovi becoming defensive enough to hurt his goal numbers.

He has a great shot and he's an amazing skater, so even if he does play a two way game he should still be able to get his goals.

I thought he would score significantly less after they changed coaches, he used to play the entire power play almost every time they had one.

[toby91_ca 620]

Darkmanx....not sure where you get 0.45 GPG for Stamkos, it's 0.56 isn't it? Quite a significant difference. Also, in terms of Bure and Lindros, a good chunk of their careers came during one of the lowest scoring eras in the history of the game. There was higher scoring at the first of their careers, but it trailed off significantly later in the 90s.

Lindros and Bure were ones that just came to mind as more recent and I agree that many might not think of Lindros as a goal scoring machine, but I think injuries played a big part in that, he score 40+ goals multiple times while also missing significant games. I think he was scoring at a clip of 0.61 GPG over the first 7 years of his career (before major concussion troubles).

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Darkmanx....not sure where you get 0.45 GPG for Stamkos, it's 0.56 isn't it? Quite a significant difference. Also, in terms of Bure and Lindros, a good chunk of their careers came during one of the lowest scoring eras in the history of the game. There was higher scoring at the first of their careers, but it trailed off significantly later in the 90s.

Lindros and Bure were ones that just came to mind as more recent and I agree that many might not think of Lindros as a goal scoring machine, but I think injuries played a big part in that, he score 40+ goals multiple times while also missing significant games. I think he was scoring at a clip of 0.61 GPG over the first 7 years of his career (before major concussion troubles).

Sorry I messed up, I divided his assists instead of his goals.

Scoring when Lindros and Bure played is almost the exact same as it is now, hovering just above 5 GPG average yet Ovi is still averaging higher GPG then either of them did. Durability is also a huge role in this and you cannot take that away from Ovi.

[LAWings 160]

If Ovechkin retired today, he'd be the greatest player ever not to win a Cup. Nevermind the fact that he's never even been to the conference finals, much like Marcel Dionne, who's likely right behind him as greatest player not to win one.

Surely you jest sir. Do you mean the same Marcel Dionne who finished 6th all time in scoring and 4th all time in goals? Maybe you're confused with Marc Andre Dionne who hasn't played in the NHL yet but will most likely finish behind Ovechkant in his career.

[LAWings 160]

Even if you take Gretzky out of the equation, is Ovi better then Bobby Hull, Howe, Bossy etc?

Here is a chart of his dominance against his peers since he joined the league.

Top Scorers GP Goals GPG

Alex Ovechkin 758 475 0.63

Jarome Iginla 763 336 0.44

Rick Nash 707 320 0.45

Ilya Kovalchuk 589 309 0.52

Patrick Marleau 769 302 0.39

Sidney Crosby 624 301 0.48

Eric Staal 762 301 0.40

Marian Hossa 702 298 0.42

Thomas Vanek 741 298 0.40

Corey Perry 720 296 0.41

We need to go deeper, there were other grand master prolific scorers, this guy always amazed me: Joe Malone - 1.13 GPG for NHL, 1.45 GPG NHA

"was the NHL's first scoring leader, registering 44 goals in 20 games, a record total that would stand as the NHL's single season goal scoring mark until 1945 and a record per-game average that stands to this day. (If such an average was sustained over today's 82-game schedule, it would result in 180 goals, nearly double Wayne Gretzky's record of 92.) Malone scored at least one goal (and a total of 35 goals) in his first 14 NHL games to set the record for the longest goal-scoring streak to begin an NHL career. This streak still stands as the second-longest goal-scoring streak in NHL history."

and

"went on to humiliate Sydney, Nova Scotia, in the Stanley Cup finals, with Malone scoring a stunning nine goals in the first match on March 8, 1913."

and

"Malone totaled 343 goals in 273 regular-season contests between 1909 and 1924. He scored five or more goals in a single game 10 times in his career."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Malone_%28ice_hockey%29

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p195006&type=Player&page=bio&list=

Honorable Mentions:

- ZIggy Palfy: 329 goals / 624 games - .52GPG

- Nels Stewart: 324 / 650 games - .49

- MIKE f***IGN BOSSY: 573 GOALS / 752 GAMES - .76 GPG

If you've read this far, congrats, here's the last link for more hockey stat porn:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_per_game_progress.html

Edited May 29, 2015 by LAWings

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Surely you jest sir. Do you mean the same Marcel Dionne who finished 6th all time in scoring and 4th all time in goals? Maybe you're confused with Marc Andre Dionne who hasn't played in the NHL yet but will most likely finish behind Ovechkant in his career.

Francis is higher all time in points than Ovechkin also. Yzerman is higher all time in points than Beliveau. You can't just look at all time points to determine who was better. I would say Ovechkin's individual awards put him above Dionne. Yes, you could blame that on Gretzky being in Dionne's era. But it's still a fair point.

As I said earlier, other than Ovechkin, I can't think of a player who led his team in goals and points the first 10 seasons of his career.

Dionne is not ranked that highly in hockey circles. I think a lot of that is unfair, but I don't think he should be ranked higher than Ovechkin, who is a better player for his era and for his position.

Edited May 29, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[toby91_ca 620]

Leading your team in goals and points for 10 years is an accomplishment, but doesn't mean much to mean in terms of overall value as a player. For example: If, during those 10 years, a teammate had a spectacular year, doesn't that somehow make you a worse player? Honestly, the fact that Ovechkin has that type of stat may be part of the reason he's never been past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Leading your team in goals and points for 10 years is an accomplishment, but doesn't mean much to mean in terms of overall value as a player. For example: If, during those 10 years, a teammate had a spectacular year, doesn't that somehow make you a worse player? Honestly, the fact that Ovechkin has that type of stat may be part of the reason he's never been past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Not sure if I read your post correctly. Other Capitals have had great seasons during that stretch. Semin, Backstrom and Green have put up big numbers. Ovechkin has just scored more than them. Their problem in the playoffs is the production from other players is never enough when it counts. That's why they've never made it past the second round.

But it's not like he's played on a talentless team, where it's natural that he will lead them in goals and points every season. He's deserved that record because of his play and consistency.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

We need to go deeper, there were other grand master prolific scorers, this guy always amazed me: Joe Malone - 1.13 GPG for NHL, 1.45 GPG NHA

"was the NHL's first scoring leader, registering 44 goals in 20 games, a record total that would stand as the NHL's single season goal scoring mark until 1945 and a record per-game average that stands to this day. (If such an average was sustained over today's 82-game schedule, it would result in 180 goals, nearly double Wayne Gretzky's record of 92.) Malone scored at least one goal (and a total of 35 goals) in his first 14 NHL games to set the record for the longest goal-scoring streak to begin an NHL career. This streak still stands as the second-longest goal-scoring streak in NHL history."

and

"went on to humiliate Sydney, Nova Scotia, in the Stanley Cup finals, with Malone scoring a stunning nine goals in the first match on March 8, 1913."

and

"Malone totaled 343 goals in 273 regular-season contests between 1909 and 1924. He scored five or more goals in a single game 10 times in his career."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Malone_%28ice_hockey%29

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p195006&type=Player&page=bio&list=

Honorable Mentions:

- ZIggy Palfy: 329 goals / 624 games - .52GPG

- Nels Stewart: 324 / 650 games - .49

- MIKE f***IGN BOSSY: 573 GOALS / 752 GAMES - .76 GPG

If you've read this far, congrats, here's the last link for more hockey stat porn:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_per_game_progress.html

I find it incredible that the season he scored 44 goals, he had FOUR assists.

One season in the NHA, he scored 43 goals, and had ZERO assists.

How the hell does that happen.

Ha.

its crazy.

[LAWings 160]

The more I think about this, I've concluded that unless he wins any Cups, he'll go down as one of the biggest chokers of all time. There comes a point where one could care less what he's done in the regular season when he doesn't really choke in the playoffs, he gags, all over the game 7's.

Out of 9 game 7 appearances, only winning 3, never going past the 2nd round. He's also a coach killer, his 5th one in his illustrious 10 year career. Unless your name is Pavel Datsyuk, no Russian player that captains their team will win a Stanley Cup. There, I said it.

[sibiriak 84]

. Unless your name is Pavel Datsyuk, no Russian player that captains their team will win a Stanley Cup. There, I said it.

Stereotype much?

[Helmethead 235]

Wow. You said it. I wish I never read it. Lol

[Rivalred 630]

Ovie needs to get to a team that has a chance

[Helmethead 235]

The Caps are a good team and have as good of a chance to come out of the East as any other team. Trotz did very well his first season there. I don't see them getting any worse. Besides, the Caps will not trade Ovie. Now do I have to clarify that I'm not the Caps GM?

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

The Caps are a good team and have as good of a chance to come out of the East as any other team. Trotz did very well his first season there. I don't see them getting any worse. Besides, the Caps will not trade Ovie. Now do I have to clarify that I'm not the Caps GM?

Yes

And your also talking in absolutes. Ovi isn't going anywhere is pretty obvious. He sells tickets, is fantastic for the City and is a superstar.