jimmyemeryhunter 2,747 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Pittsburgh was given the 09 cup cause bettman had to have his golden boy win it all to promote the nhl .... Last 5 yrs they have emptied out all there picks and prospects for nothing Chicago drafted toews Keith kane seabrook .... Who did they trade for exactly that helped them win a cup? Bruins? Ya that seguin trade really helped the bruins .... Rask was a nobody when they got him and chara was a ufa like 8 yrs ago , lucic bergeron krejci drafted ...who'd they trade for? Kings drafted doughty kopitar quick .... Gaborik was overrated and hardly a contributer in helping them win it all Nobody has traded for a big name or signed one in the ufa market to help them win a cup in a very long time Only thing I disagree with...He was a lot more instrumental in the first cup win then even his stat line shows. 1 PavelValerievichDatsyuk reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Pittsburgh was given the 09 cup cause bettman had to have his golden boy win it all to promote the nhl .... Last 5 yrs they have emptied out all there picks and prospects for nothing Chicago drafted toews Keith kane seabrook .... Who did they trade for exactly that helped them win a cup? Bruins? Ya that seguin trade really helped the bruins .... Rask was a nobody when they got him and chara was a ufa like 8 yrs ago , lucic bergeron krejci drafted ...who'd they trade for? Kings drafted doughty kopitar quick .... Gaborik was overrated and hardly a contributer in helping them win it all Nobody has traded for a big name or signed one in the ufa market to help them win a cup in a very long time LOL funny. So guys like Carter, Gaborik, Greene, Mitchell, Richards, Stoll, Williams, Penner, scuderi, Boychuk, Chara, Ference, Jagr, Kelly, Krug, Rask, Seidenberg, Siderberg, Thorton, Seguin (which includes later trades for Eriksson, Smith, and Hamilton), Bollard, Campbell, Hossa, Sharp, Versteeg, Gill, Guerin, and Gonchar are all nothings. All of which were traded for, signed as UFA's or in some cases part of a big name trade for extra picks. Which goes back to the point I was making. It is impossible for any team to win a SC in this day and age with all 23 guys on the roster being their normal draft picks. You can't produce enough talent that way regardless of how good you draft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,763 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Was never high on weiss from the day he was signed said he was overrated and got the 60 pt season in Florida due to them having nobody thus he was given all the ice time in the world and powerplay opportunities ... There's a lot of players who play in less successful markets with No pressure and all the ice time needed who in better teams dissapear Example ... Vermette , what has he done in Chicago? Hasn't done much since he was dealt there , but he was like one of the "big catches " on trade deadline day ... Keith yandle same .... Is yandle good? Sure but he's not as good as some people make him out to be , ekman larsson is the real deal Point is even before weiss was here I personally never thought he was anything great and hated us getting him regardless of what hbo mckenzie or whom ever said Even hockey people get it wrong sometimes .... Not saying I'm perfect cause I'm not , I thought after glendening got his 1 goal in 70 games last season he wouldn't last long cause I always think of the grind line years where the 4th line always gave us huge goals and helped us win playoff games ... Luke proved me wrong this year Anyways just realized how much I wrote lol ... Point is never thought highly of weiss To be honest, I didn't see enough of Weiss on Florida to agree or disagree with you. What I do remember, is him being a very good player on Plymouth, getting drafted 4th overall, being their best player with Horton for years, and being the epitome of consistency before his wrist injury. The talk on him, was that we was a below average first line center, but that he would be an elite second line center. I get your point, similar to Lang on Wsh or Hudler this year on Cgy, There could be a valid point there, but I dont think you can simply assess a player based on points (I assume you are because you said "lack of production" when referencing Vermette). There are so many variables involved here, lack of production on a new team could be because on your old team you were given a TON of opportunity like you said, it could mean you are being given a different role from your new coach, it could be lack of chemistry with your new line mates, it could be that you are a player that works well in system A, but poorly in system B. Point is, unless you watch every Weiss game, you really don't know. I personally think Weiss's poor play is because he suffered a really bad abdominal injury and never re-gained his form. Plus, I think there is an issue with him and either Babs himself or Bab's system. I get your point though, you didn't like the signing. I guess my point, is that the people that liked it were not "idiots". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Those trades happened ages ago and besides a few of them none were big names that were big cornerstones in teams winning cups All the teams that won the cups drafted the core guys .... And teams haven't been trading big name stars for years now and no big name ufa guys have been hitting the market for years as well Times have changed man ... We signed weiss and traded for cole and zidlicky didn't work If your willing to trade mantha athanasiou larkin holmstrom mrazek bertuzzi for non elite stars who will be ufa's in 3 years then I thank f***en god your not our gm To be honest, I didn't see enough of Weiss on Florida to agree or disagree with you. What I do remember, is him being a very good player on Plymouth, getting drafted 4th overall, being their best player with Horton for years, and being the epitome of consistency before his wrist injury. The talk on him, was that we was a below average first line center, but that he would be an elite second line center. I get your point, similar to Lang on Wsh or Hudler this year on Cgy, There could be a valid point there, but I dont think you can simply assess a player based on points (I assume you are because you said "lack of production" when referencing Vermette). There are so many variables involved here, lack of production on a new team could be because on your old team you were given a TON of opportunity like you said, it could mean you are being given a different role from your new coach, it could be lack of chemistry with your new line mates, it could be that you are a player that works well in system A, but poorly in system B. Point is, unless you watch every Weiss game, you really don't know. I personally think Weiss's poor play is because he suffered a really bad abdominal injury and never re-gained his form. Plus, I think there is an issue with him and either Babs himself or Bab's system. I get your point though, you didn't like the signing. I guess my point, is that the people that liked it were not "idiots". Alot of utube who had great junior careers never produced at the nhl level ... A few 60 pt seasons in Florida was nothing to get excited about when we landed him , injury or not Sorry if I pissed you off with the idiots stuff but I got a lot worse s*** from people when I hated the signing when it happend And as for vermette yes there's more to a players game than points but I'm pretty sure the hawks didn't get him to not produce on the scoresheet just like the rangers did with yandle ... When you give up a high price they did for a player I'm sure there expecting points as well as good overall play Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Those trades happened ages ago and besides a few of them none were big names that were big cornerstones in teams winning cups All the teams that won the cups drafted the core guys .... And teams haven't been trading big name stars for years now and no big name ufa guys have been hitting the market for years as well Times have changed man ... We signed weiss and traded for cole and zidlicky didn't work If your willing to trade mantha athanasiou larkin holmstrom mrazek bertuzzi for non elite stars who will be ufa's in 3 years then I thank f***en god your not our gm Alot of utube who had great junior careers never produced at the nhl level ... A few 60 pt seasons in Florida was nothing to get excited about when we landed him , injury or not Sorry if I pissed you off with the idiots stuff but I got a lot worse s*** from people when I hated the signing when it happend And as for vermette yes there's more to a players game than points but I'm pretty sure the hawks didn't get him to not produce on the scoresheet just like the rangers did with yandle ... When you give up a high price they did for a player I'm sure there expecting points as well as good overall play Yes those trades happened BEFORE each of those teams won the SC. Its called building a team. Something we haven't been doing. We have been static for years now. The UFA market is dead, which means we have to trade and draft. Just drafting isn't enough. Many of those guys were also key players on their teams to win. Carter for example is LAK best and most consistant offensive threat. Chara, Boychek, and seidenberg are/were bostons top 3 Dmen. Sharp, Hossa, and Versteeg were dominate players for the Blackhawks. The Pens were the only team with limited outside players on their team. Of course we haven't talked about the Rangers yet. But they haven't won a cup yet either..... 1 PavelValerievichDatsyuk reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luvmnger 125 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 at the time we grabbed weiss it was to replace fillipula. he was steadier, shot more, and more physical. leader type credentials. we lost foot speed...but were supposed to gain the above attributes. its always a gamble. franzen/hossa. lang/fleishmann primeau/shanahan kozlov/hasek chelios/ire of fans bertuzzi/ire of world sometimes you win...sometimes you lose. i do wish our GM was more ballsy....but our drafting team makes it hard when the kids are generally so good after seasoning. i am truly impressed with the griffins lineup right now and hope that the "brain trust" doesn't throw away the next "datsyuk" (171 pick) for some ok d-man that gives us 60% of what we expect. timing is everything...if you force it....things go like the wendel clark/ulf sammuelsson grab. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Only thing I disagree with... He was a lot more instrumental in the first cup win then even his stat line shows. He's not the same player as he once was though ... The days of reading for mega stars and signing them as ufa's are over ... It's more role guys that are available and I'm personally not willing to give up top prospects and 1st rounders for those Yes those trades happened BEFORE each of those teams won the SC. Its called building a team. Something we haven't been doing. We have been static for years now. The UFA market is dead, which means we have to trade and draft. Just drafting isn't enough. Many of those guys were also key players on their teams to win. Carter for example is LAK best and most consistant offensive threat. Chara, Boychek, and seidenberg are/were bostons top 3 Dmen. Sharp, Hossa, and Versteeg were dominate players for the Blackhawks. The Pens were the only team with limited outside players on their team. Of course we haven't talked about the Rangers yet. But they haven't won a cup yet either..... Those trades not only happened before they won the cups ... It happened years ago ... Big name guys haven't been dealt in like 5 yrs and beyond at the time we grabbed weiss it was to replace fillipula. he was steadier, shot more, and more physical. leader type credentials. we lost foot speed...but were supposed to gain the above attributes. its always a gamble. franzen/hossa. lang/fleishmann primeau/shanahan kozlov/hasek chelios/ire of fans bertuzzi/ire of world sometimes you win...sometimes you lose. i do wish our GM was more ballsy....but our drafting team makes it hard when the kids are generally so good after seasoning. i am truly impressed with the griffins lineup right now and hope that the "brain trust" doesn't throw away the next "datsyuk" (171 pick) for some ok d-man that gives us 60% of what we expect. timing is everything...if you force it....things go like the wendel clark/ulf sammuelsson grab. Our Grand Rapids team is stacked full of young talent with loads of potential not just a few prospects and aging ahlers which makes it more exciting and the fact that they can win yet again another Calder is amazing and makes the wings future that much more to get excited about McCollum has surprisingly been playing well , I had written him off ... Maybe he could be mrazeks backup in 2 yrs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 LOL funny. So guys like Carter, Gaborik, Greene, Mitchell, Richards, Stoll, Williams, Penner, scuderi, Boychuk, Chara, Ference, Jagr, Kelly, Krug, Rask, Seidenberg, Siderberg, Thorton, Seguin (which includes later trades for Eriksson, Smith, and Hamilton), Bollard, Campbell, Hossa, Sharp, Versteeg, Gill, Guerin, and Gonchar are all nothings. All of which were traded for, signed as UFA's or in some cases part of a big name trade for extra picks. Which goes back to the point I was making. It is impossible for any team to win a SC in this day and age with all 23 guys on the roster being their normal draft picks. You can't produce enough talent that way regardless of how good you draft. Your point is irrelevant because we're not trying to build a team solely with drafting. Weiss, Miller, Quincey, Glendening, and Dekeyser, plus Cole and Zidlicky this year. No stars, but comparable to many of the players on your list. We've targeted several others. We will pursue UFAs this offseason. We will look at trades. Whether we get anything done, we'll see. Most likely we will do something, but nothing that will satisfy you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 He's not the same player as he once was though ... The days of reading for mega stars and signing them as ufa's are over ... It's more role guys that are available and I'm personally not willing to give up top prospects and 1st rounders for those Those trades not only happened before they won the cups ... It happened years ago ... Big name guys haven't been dealt in like 5 yrs and beyond Our Grand Rapids team is stacked full of young talent with loads of potential not just a few prospects and aging ahlers which makes it more exciting and the fact that they can win yet again another Calder is amazing and makes the wings future that much more to get excited about McCollum has surprisingly been playing well , I had written him off ... Maybe he could be mrazeks backup in 2 yrs? That is flat out wrong. nash, Ryan, neal, hornqvuist etc... have all been moved over the last 3 seasons. Players are always being moved. Big time star players. Just not by us. That is the issue. Your point is irrelevant because we're not trying to build a team solely with drafting. Weiss, Miller, Quincey, Glendening, and Dekeyser, plus Cole and Zidlicky this year. No stars, but comparable to many of the players on your list. We've targeted several others. We will pursue UFAs this offseason. We will look at trades. Whether we get anything done, we'll see. Most likely we will do something, but nothing that will satisfy you. holland and many others have said they are trying to build through the draft. he has refused to trade and has failed in the UFA market. Again there is no team that has won a SC that way. Sooner or later you have to bring in outside talent. We lack stars as a team and have very few in the system that could be stars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 ... holland and many others have said they are trying to build through the draft. he has refused to trade and has failed in the UFA market. Again there is no team that has won a SC that way. Sooner or later you have to bring in outside talent. We lack stars as a team and have very few in the system that could be stars. Your denial of reality is hilarious. 1 nyqvististhefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 I had no idea patric hornqvist was an nhl star Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,675 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 I had no idea patric hornqvist was an nhl star It's easy to be confused. Anybody who regularly plays with Crosby or Malkin can look like a superstar. Just ask Chris Kunitz. 2 MrazekFanBoy and nyqvististhefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) I had no idea patric hornqvist was an nhl star You picked out the one questionable name. St. Louis, Ryan, Seguin, Nash, Gaborik...Many stars have been traded recently. Myers could be a big player. Yandle was pretty big maybe some consider a star. I agree without spirit of your argument - We need to build from the draft primarily. And I don't think we can sacrifice what was paid in most of those deal. ...But you're overstepping things saying that no big times players are available by trade and also trying to argue that big trades didn't contribute to Bruins, Chicago, Kings cup wins is on thin ice. Kings especially were pretty much due to picking up on fortunate and timely trades. Without Carter, Richards (was a good trade for a while and contributed for a while), Gaborik (was huge for them, IMO) no cups. Edited May 11, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Bobby ryan is a waste , can he score? Yes he can shoot but he dissapeared in the playoffs and towards the end of the year ... Not the type of guy you can win with Gaborik was tossed around from place to place ... His glory says are way behind him Rick nash is good but another guy who's just a playoff disaster for whatever reason can't get it done at the big show Saint louis was dealt at 38 and nyr gave up a lot for him cause there contending and there window is closing Seguin is the big guy in there with his whole future ahead of him and well that trade was done cause the boston bruins are f***en dumbasses and you'll likely not find another gm who will trade a superstar for basically nothing Did richards and carter help l.a? Sure but richards is In the ahl now and the kings won because of the core of the team is led by kopitar doughty and quick who are all on there prime Point is we won't be adding any superstar players in there prime now unless there ufa's which they don't go there anymore or we trade away all our top prospects and I'm not willing to do that If there's a good role played or good player who can fetch 15-30 goals I'm sure we will try to add them if we can like we did with cole Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Ahh, yes. I can see where this thread is heading around July 5th. Holland tries to sign all top FA's, but they don't want to come here. Thus the Fire Holland threads start because people didn't get there way. Rinse and Repeat. 1 nyqvististhefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 I had no idea patric hornqvist was an nhl star Yes. Guys that have scored 20+ goals in 5 of the past 6 seasons are stars. 3 of those years were for 25+ goals. Is he a super star? No. But he is a better offensive player than most of our current forwards. But hey, all is cool in the world. 3 of the last 4 years losing in the first round, and having to win our last game to even make it into the PO's. We are golden....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Now back to the topic. UFA's. There are 4 UFA Dmen that would help us out. Green, Franson, Petry, and McQ. All are RHed. Some are very good offensively-Green others bring D and toughness-McQ. Same at the F position. Stafford and Belesky are out there. 1 RW 1 a LW. http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=forwards&minutes=750&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC Using that link and looking at all F that played 750+ minutes of 5 on 5 hockey this year, only Datsyuk is better than Belesky 40th and Stafford 68th. Both are also under 30. A couple of F's maybe in trade, and were they rank. STL is going to make some type of changes. Could we get Backus? He is 37th on the 5 on 5 list, and there is the oft rumors O'reilly with the Avs, he is 72nd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzerfan87 146 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Now back to the topic. UFA's. There are 4 UFA Dmen that would help us out. Green, Franson, Petry, and McQ. All are RHed. Some are very good offensively-Green others bring D and toughness-McQ. Same at the F position. Stafford and Belesky are out there. 1 RW 1 a LW. http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=forwards&minutes=750&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC Using that link and looking at all F that played 750+ minutes of 5 on 5 hockey this year, only Datsyuk is better than Belesky 40th and Stafford 68th. Both are also under 30. A couple of F's maybe in trade, and were they rank. STL is going to make some type of changes. Could we get Backus? He is 37th on the 5 on 5 list, and there is the oft rumors O'reilly with the Avs, he is 72nd. You should add Martin and Ehrhoff as well. I don't think Pittsburgh can afford to keep them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SaCkaveli20 275 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Mike Green Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 You should add Martin and Ehrhoff as well. I don't think Pittsburgh can afford to keep them. Little long in the tooth, but for 1 or 2 years, sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,763 Report post Posted May 12, 2015 Alot of utube who had great junior careers never produced at the nhl level ... A few 60 pt seasons in Florida was nothing to get excited about when we landed him , injury or not Sorry if I pissed you off with the idiots stuff but I got a lot worse s*** from people when I hated the signing when it happend And as for vermette yes there's more to a players game than points but I'm pretty sure the hawks didn't get him to not produce on the scoresheet just like the rangers did with yandle ... When you give up a high price they did for a player I'm sure there expecting points as well as good overall play No worries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cnot19 191 Report post Posted May 12, 2015 I have a feeling belesky may be overpaid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,675 Report post Posted May 12, 2015 Alot of utube who had great junior careers never produced at the nhl level ... A few 60 pt seasons in Florida was nothing to get excited about when we landed him , injury or not Sorry if I pissed you off with the idiots stuff but I got a lot worse s*** from people when I hated the signing when it happend Dude, please stop with the "I told you so" crap concerning the Weiss signing. You may have not liked the Weiss signing, but you called David Clarkson a "must get" that same offseason and advocated giving him 4.5-5 million dollars. In the same thread you advocated signing Ryane Clowe for 4-4.5 million. So it's not like you were some free agency oracle that year. Maybe you wouldn't have signed Weiss, but you would have sunk even more money into players who were just as bad or worse. Hell, Clowe doesn't even play pro hockey anymore. So lets just give a rest eh? http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/74189-david-clarkson-a-must-get-july-1st/ 4 PavelValerievichDatsyuk, marcaractac, number9 and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted May 12, 2015 Hornqvist is one of the best net front guys in the NHL, shoots right and has some grit. Wouldn't be a bad pickup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted May 12, 2015 Hornqvist is one of the best net front guys in the NHL, shoots right and has some grit. Wouldn't be a bad pickup.He's not a UFA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites