Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?

[FireCaptain 563]

I read a couple of articles today that reference the Wings' inability to land Suter or Parise. I'm beginning to think long gone are the days of the hometown discount and the 'head to Detroit and you've got a shot at a championship' mentality. With the parity that currently exists, any team has a shot at winning.

Yes, there's a tradition of success. Yes, there's 4 Cups in the last 15 years. However, there's just as many first/second round exits and early playoff exits. Other than consistently making the playoffs - what sets Detroit apart as a choice for someone's career? Nothing tangible.

Sure, there are the intangibles - the history, Original Six, 11 Cups, Gordie Howe, etc.. but those have very little to do a person's day-to-day working life or home life.

I was just pondering all this.. what say you?

Ryan Suter turned down Hockeytown for a bunch of lakes.

He turned down the Red Wings

. Worse of all, he turned down Mike Ilitch and $90 million.

And few can turn down Mr. Ilitch. Pudge Rodriguez couldn’t do it. Neither could Prince Fielder or Chris Chelios and countless other players that I can’t remember right now.

http://www.freep.com...ise-free-agency

Submitted for your approval: Four years ago a general manager of an NHL hockey team stops at a gas station and is interrupted by a phone call informing him that one of the top players in the league is willing to sign a one-year deal with his team. The general manager cannot believe his good fortune.

Fast forward four years later, the same general manger is in an airplane flying to Wisconsin with the hope of convincing a top player to sign a multiyear, mega-million-dollar deal with his team.

http://www.foxsports...362&feedID=3706

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

You are talking about 2 players that took well over what they are worth. 98mil for 13 yrs??? If thats what it took would you of really wanted us to do that and handcuff our team for the future??

[Wings10 300]

They also made the Finals 3 yrs ago and were 1 game away from another Cup..Sorry but just because 2 over rated and now over paid players decided to join a crappy team In Minni does not mean the Red Wings are all of a sudden a 2nd tier franchise.

[Salviaman 104]

Suter and Parise wanted to be BFF in Minnesota. There was nothing Illitch and Holland could have done. They tried but we got denied.

[Dominator2005 558]

Schultz...

Holland is 0/3 so far this summer...

[stillwater 186]

No.

[matt198913 932]

Are you referring to the same player that signed with the Wings right after they won the cup

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

Schultz...

Holland is 0/3 so far this summer...

Not sure how It's his fault. They got 98mil 13 yrs....would you of really wanted to spend that much? really....

[Dominator2005 558]

Between you and me +/- $8M for 13 years... does it really make a difference (when you already have $90M) ?!

[Seraph 240]

Are you a fan of the Red Wings or are you only a fan of winning? Every franchise faces challenges. Half the fun is seeing how those challenges are overcome.

Are we as prepared for a cup run as we were five years ago? Are we the number one cup contender? No. Things change, players come and go.

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

Even if the Red Wings had matched Minnesota's offers to both, it probably wouldn't have mattered.

“You read today where they’re happy to be going as a pair and they’re both going home,'' Holland said. “Those are some of the things we couldn’t compete against because we’re not (their) home.''

[Dabura 12,228]

We kicked the tires. I like our team. Our power play is our enforcer.

[Guest The Axe]

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.

[Guest Crymson]

I don't think that Detroit's standing or lack thereof as a perennial contender, nor that of any other team, mattered to Parise and Suter. They chose to go to a non-contender.

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.

Your prediction for the cap is immensely speculative, and probably wrong. I find it likely that the league will push for a halt on increases in the salary cap, as it is presently out of control. League owners no doubt do not enjoy paying out massively inflated contracts due to the cap being so high.

[Zetts 236]

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.

Has it occured to you that maybe Ilitch wasn't ok with that amount of money? Holland doesn't get to unilaterally make these decisions. 90M was them upping their offer, which Ilitch might not have been crazy about to begin with. I know that we just assume that Ilitch's wealth is unlimited, but maybe things aren't going quite as well these days? Just a thought.

Man people are fast to throw Kenny under the bus.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Zetts

[marcaractac 3,963]

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.

How do you even know how much they offered Parise? IT's pretty clear that offer was less than what was offered to Suter because he was our bigger need.

So our GM stinks because PArise and Suter wanted to go play BFF on a s***ty team? Please. Suter was all but signed with the Wings until Parise talked him out of it. Holland wasn't gonna criiple the team in the future cap-wise to bring in above average players. If you wanna go all out with money, you wait for Weber, not Suter.

[Guest The Axe]

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

[Guest Crymson]

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

Something tells me that signing Lidstrom this season was not an option. I don't think that you can reasonably lay that one at Holland's feet. Suter and Parise chose to go a non-contender. Schultz was not willing to consider non-Canadian teams.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Crymson

[marcaractac 3,963]

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

1 and 2 are not any fault of Holland. #3 gives the team a little depth up front so we can make trades. Would you like some cheese with your whine?

[Hairy Lime 234]

I can't say how much blame, if any, Holland deserves in the case of Parise and Suter, but I do think he has let this team age badly. I always seem like I'm the only one who doesn't like his "over ripe" theory when it comes to prospects. Just because a prospect who sat in GR or over seas a little longer eventually turns into a success, doesn't mean they wouldn't of advanced quicker if they had been thrown right into the mix. I would of loved to have seen more of Tatar last season, and Smith in the playoffs. And don't even get me started on his anti-enforcer stance.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I can't believe that people are trying to blame the Wings because their offer was 0.5M less than Minny's. They went to Minny to play for their hometown team. It had nothing to do with the 0.5M or the fact the the Wings lost in the first round.

To try and spin this into being Kenny's fault is ridiculous.

[Dominator2005 558]

Has it occured to you that maybe Ilitch wasn't ok with that amount of money? Holland doesn't get to unilaterally make these decisions. 90M was them upping their offer, which Ilitch might not have been crazy about to begin with. I know that we just assume that Ilitch's wealth is unlimited, but maybe things aren't going quite as well these days? Just a thought.

Man people are fast to throw Kenny under the bus.

Well original offer was $80M and then someone (I think it was Ilitch) had increased to $90M.

Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom. What will be next step... he will bring Lilja back and overpay for Carle...

2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson but he denied that trade because he wants to have veterans... Why Sammy is back? Why we can't give a chance to Nyquist and Brunner on the 2nd line??? I don't care if we are going to win 60 games or 45 games. Time has changed, YOU NEED TO TRUST to your young players. We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?! He was supposed to make this team bigger and tougher... "tough addition" is Jordan Tootoo - WTF!!!!!

[FireCaptain 563]

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.

You are talking about 2 players that took well over what they are worth. 98mil for 13 yrs??? If thats what it took would you of really wanted us to do that and handcuff our team for the future??

$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?

They also made the Finals 3 yrs ago and were 1 game away from another Cup..Sorry but just because 2 over rated and now over paid players decided to join a crappy team In Minni does not mean the Red Wings are all of a sudden a 2nd tier franchise.

Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.

Are you a fan of the Red Wings or are you only a fan of winning? Every franchise faces challenges. Half the fun is seeing how those challenges are overcome.

Are we as prepared for a cup run as we were five years ago? Are we the number one cup contender? No. Things change, players come and go.

Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..

You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).

Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.

[Zetts 236]

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

1. Lidstrom retiring is out of Holland's control. It's ridiculous to blame him for that.

2. Schultz not coming her was out of Holland's control (he wanted to play in Canada).

3. Again, you're blaming Holland for not offering more of somebody else's money. He did what he could, I'm sure. But if, hypothetically, Ilitch said he wouldn't go higher with the offer, that's not Kenny's fault. In fact, I believe it was Ilitch himself who was the last one to visit Suter.

4. Offensively, we're actually ok. So the signings of Bertuzzi and Samuelsson aren't an issue, nor have they impacted our ability to get anybody that might be better. Also, every player won't be a superstar. They're not actually bad players.

5. Gustavsson was a good improvement as a backup. I don't know what your complaint is there.

Maybe Holland could have made better moves or been more aggressive in some ways. But your critisisms of him are way overboard.

[Dominator2005 558]

I can't say how much blame, if any, Holland deserves in the case of Parise and Suter, but I do think he has let this team age badly. I always seem like I'm the only one who doesn't like his "over ripe" theory when it comes to prospects. Just because a prospect who sat in GR or over seas a little longer eventually turns into a success, doesn't mean they wouldn't of advanced quicker if they had been thrown right into the mix. I would of loved to have seen more of Tatar last season, and Smith in the playoffs. And don't even get me started on his anti-enforcer stance.

THIS!!

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.

$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?

Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.

Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..

You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).

Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.

I think that our offer was $90M for 13 years and not 12 years... difference of $.6M per season... which is NOTHING IMO.