egroen 384 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Here are the players Lidstrom is sent out against the most (even strength minutes against listed): ANZE KOPITAR 48:05 RICK NASH 45:04 OLLI JOKINEN 44:54 HENRIK SEDIN 43:43 DANIEL SEDIN 43:39 RYAN GETZLAF 43:12 JOE THORNTON 42:19 PATRICK O'SULLIVAN 41:33 BRAD BOYES 41:29 COREY PERRY 41:26 JAROME IGINLA 41:03 Mike Green PAUL MARTIN 39:36 BRYCE SALVADOR 34:45 JAY BOUWMEESTER 34:34 MARTIN ST. LOUIS 33:33 DENNIS SEIDENBERG 32:59 TIM GLEASON 32:50 CHAD LAROSE 32:40 ZACH PARISE 32:32 BRAYDON COBURN 32:26 RAY WHITNEY 32:17 ANTON BABCHUK 32:14 No wonder Mike Green's +/- is so good -- Look who he is playing against! Edited April 23, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
interminded 1 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Get real. Greene should win this one. Hands down. His numbers are absolutely terrific. Sure, he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is, but he's still a good defender. If Green develops like Nick has developed over the years, he'll be one hell of a defenseman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Get real. Greene should win this one. Hands down. His numbers are absolutely terrific. Sure, he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is, but he's still a good defender. If Green develops like Nick has developed over the years, he'll be one hell of a defenseman. Greene hasn't done jack. Green, on the other hand.. Seriously though, here's 2 posts I made on HF in regards to Green/The Norris Voting. There's no doubt that Green is a very naturally talented player. The question I have regarding him is if he leaves large risks in his defensive game to generate the offense he does, or if his good offense is separate from his defense. Can he improve his defensive game while maintaining his numbers, or will his numbers take a dip as he takes less chances and spends more time in a defensively solid position? I'm not really sure I can answer that one, but the fact that those holes do seem to be there to some degree are why I personally wouldn't give him my vote as the best all around defenseman this year. I can certainly see the media giving it to him, though; in fact, I expect it. And That's my opinion as well. One can be a physically dominant defensive beast with decent offense, or a huge offensive threat with moderate defense, but to be top 1-3 in one and top 5 in another is a much more noteworthy feat, one Lidstrom achieves and neither Chara or Green do (though, by that logic, Chara is fairly close to Lidstrom as his offensive numbers are nothing to scoff at, and his defensive numbers are the closest to Lids' as well). Sure, you can be great in one dimension and good or decent at both (Chara and Green), but being great in both? Much more valuable. That's why Niedermayer and Pronger have 1 Norris each to Lids' 6 in the same era. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
softshoes 83 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Get real. Greene should win this one. Hands down. His numbers are absolutely terrific. Sure, he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is, but he's still a good defender. If Green develops like Nick has developed over the years, he'll be one hell of a defenseman. anyone see the irony in this post? :blink: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Get real. Greene should win this one. Hands down. His numbers are absolutely terrific. Sure, he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is, but he's still a good defender. If Green develops like Nick has developed over the years, he'll be one hell of a defenseman. The scary thing is I doubt Green is even at his peak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 The scary thing is I doubt Green is even at his peak. I hope he elevates his defense while keeping his offensive numbers the same, or even improving them. I'm always for more defensemen being recognized as stars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 The scary thing is I doubt Green is even at his peak. Given Green's age and experience I think it's safe to assume this isn't his peak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedSea 31 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Here are the players Lidstrom is sent out against the most (even strength minutes against listed): ANZE KOPITAR 48:05 RICK NASH 45:04 OLLI JOKINEN 44:54 HENRIK SEDIN 43:43 DANIEL SEDIN 43:39 RYAN GETZLAF 43:12 JOE THORNTON 42:19 PATRICK O'SULLIVAN 41:33 BRAD BOYES 41:29 COREY PERRY 41:26 JAROME IGINLA 41:03 Mike Green PAUL MARTIN 39:36 BRYCE SALVADOR 34:45 JAY BOUWMEESTER 34:34 MARTIN ST. LOUIS 33:33 DENNIS SEIDENBERG 32:59 TIM GLEASON 32:50 CHAD LAROSE 32:40 ZACH PARISE 32:32 BRAYDON COBURN 32:26 RAY WHITNEY 32:17 ANTON BABCHUK 32:14 No wonder Mike Green's +/- is so good -- Look who he is playing against! Just curious, where'd you get those numbers from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ I hesitated to post the source for fear of Drake Marcus' social life crumbling Edited April 23, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ I hesitated to post the source for fear of Drake Marcus' social life crumbling No need to worry too much- I'm actually not a huge stats freak in real life. Of the dozens of math courses I've taken, intro stats was by far the least exciting. I just like backing my opinions up with stats when it comes to hockey. To be honest, the part of that stats post I made before this round started that I found most fun was collecting and calculating the stuff that wasn't already done on NHL.com (i.e. the head to head stats). I'm just a math/physics/engineering nerd at heart Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Lidstrom has been seen, like it or not, for the first half of the season, making rather large mistakes and getting burned. "First half" is an exaggeration. He struggled somewhat in November, but has been good as or better than any Dman in the league since. He's made a handful of obvious errors this year, like he does every year, but defensively no one is in the same ballpark. Green will likely win on the strength of his scoring, which is fine, since his numbers are pretty outrageous, but Nick has been as stalwart as ever for the most part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reds4Life 51 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Lidstrom is still the best and he deserves it, I just hope writers are not sick of him winning yet. Green is not gonna win the Norris, only Bobby Orr won Norris when he missed 12+ games. And Chara is not really close offensively and his teammate - Wideman has better stats. Edited April 23, 2009 by Reds4Life Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
interminded 1 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 anyone see the irony in this post? :blink: eh... no ? please explain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 For anyone who appreciates good statistical analysis I recommend the following site's look at the "quality of competition" for defensemen: http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/basic_5_on...team=&pos=D Brent Seabrook plays against really high end players compared to Duncan Keith... I was pretty surprised by that. I figured they'd both play about the same minutes against the best players on their opponent's team. That site will also give you some appreciation of how outstanding Rob Blake's season was this year (I knew he had a great season, but not that great). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 eh... no ? please explain. You said that Green had outperformed Lidstrom, and then went on to suggest he'd be a hell of a player if he developed like Lidstrom. So if Green > Lidstrom now, then Green will turn... worse as he develops? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyMountainWingGal 108 Report post Posted April 23, 2009 Get real. Greene should win this one. Hands down. His numbers are absolutely terrific. Sure, he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is, but he's still a good defender. If Green develops like Nick has developed over the years, he'll be one hell of a defenseman. Green has sucked in the Caps series vs the Rangers. I know that is not counted towards the voting, but he is not bringing it when it counts. Chara is a better all around defenseman than Green - I can understand people voting for him because players have to alter their game plan to play against him. Green merely scored alot of goals - which of course is sexy and could very well win him the trophy - but I think it's bogus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Just a question. Is Green the Caps' top defensive defenseman? Because I mean, Nick and Chara are the for their teams, I believe, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pope04 0 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Lidstrom's a great vet. Congratulations! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kook_10 1,705 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) I would say he did. Lidstrom revitalized the role of the smooth-skating, stick checking, positionally sound defenseman and took it to a level that is arguably unmatched in the history of the sport (I personally think he does the latter two even better than Orr did, though Orr has an edge on skating and physicality, not to mention offensive upside). He also has the best first pass in the game, can slow down/control the breakout with patience like few or no others, and what I think is the most overlooked part of his game is his vision and ability to pass off the boards or make soft dumps where his teammates can reach the puck and the opponent can't. These are also all qualities which have, under his quarterbacking, allowed the Wings to employ a successful style of puck control play that other teams are just not skilled enough to do. Edited April 24, 2009 by kook_10 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevieY'sguy 1 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Lidstrom is still the best and he deserves it, I just hope writers are not sick of him winning yet. Green is not gonna win the Norris, only Bobby Orr won Norris when he missed 12+ games. And Chara is not really close offensively and his teammate - Wideman has better stats. Mike Green became the first defenseman in 16 years to score more than 30 years, that alone would win it for him..... the fact that he did all of this IN SPITE of missing 12 + games is even that more impressive. Let me make it clear here that i am not saying that Green should win it, and i'm not saying i believe he's the best defenseman, even on his team, but if you truly think that the 30 goal season didn't win this trophy for him lock stock and barrel then you are delusional. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reds4Life 51 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Mike Green became the first defenseman in 16 years to score more than 30 years, that alone would win it for him..... the fact that he did all of this IN SPITE of missing 12 + games is even that more impressive. Let me make it clear here that i am not saying that Green should win it, and i'm not saying i believe he's the best defenseman, even on his team, but if you truly think that the 30 goal season didn't win this trophy for him lock stock and barrel then you are delusional. Green missed 14 games in which he did not help his team. It is a proven fact that GP plays a HUGE part in Norris voting, since only Bobby Orr managed to win Norris after missing 12 games, and Bobby Orr is top4 player ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted April 24, 2009 "First half" is an exaggeration. He struggled somewhat in November, but has been good as or better than any Dman in the league since. He's made a handful of obvious errors this year, like he does every year, but defensively no one is in the same ballpark. Green will likely win on the strength of his scoring, which is fine, since his numbers are pretty outrageous, but Nick has been as stalwart as ever for the most part. Later on in the season I agree, however, Lidstrom was highly vulnerable for the first half of the season, not just November. Numerous times he got burned, especially when pinching. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Later on in the season I agree, however, Lidstrom was highly vulnerable for the first half of the season, not just November. Numerous times he got burned, especially when pinching. Nick and Lilja have been very good for the large majority of the year, it was everybody else that was having a hard time around them. Rafalski was very often suspect and Nik and Stuart were just plain bad. Even when Nick went through a stretch where he struggled, he still was pretty good, he was just making the mistakes everyone not named Lidstrom usually makes. I don't know if Detroit's number hurt his Norris chances this year but if it did, it wouldn't be on Nick at all in my mind. He has continued to play a sound positional game while the rest of the team was dogging it for much of the year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted April 24, 2009 Nick and Lilja have been very good for the large majority of the year, it was everybody else that was having a hard time around them. Rafalski was very often suspect and Nik and Stuart were just plain bad. Even when Nick went through a stretch where he struggled, he still was pretty good, he was just making the mistakes everyone not named Lidstrom usually makes. I don't know if Detroit's number hurt his Norris chances this year but if it did, it wouldn't be on Nick at all in my mind. He has continued to play a sound positional game while the rest of the team was dogging it for much of the year. I guess we can agree to disagree. I thought most of the other defenseman were better than Lids earlier on in the season, especially Lilja. He was off his game earlier on but by the way he played later most people forgot -- just not enough, most likely, to impress the voters, i.e. writers. Green just looks like this year's sweetheart. I gotta admit though, despite Lids not deserving it over Chara or Green, I'm still pulling for him, and am gonna laugh my ass off if he wins it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 24, 2009 I guess we can agree to disagree. Well, no matter; that was then and this is now. What's important is that Nick's got more points and a better +/- than Mr. Faux Hawk, and Nick's team moves on while Mike's doesn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
