Why no Enforcer in Motown?

[Heaton 1]

If your expectations every single season is cup or bust and anything less than that is major dissapointment and a complete failure, then you'll never be satisfied.

[StevieY9802 6]

If your expectations every single season is cup or bust and anything less than that is major dissapointment and a complete failure, then you'll never be satisfied.

Thats what a lot of people think around here. Or just Wings fans in general. I had someone say to me that with the talent the wings have they should win the cup every year. Thought that was an ignorant comment. Because thats like saying the rest of the league has no talent. There are 16 other teams who would have loved to been where the Wings, Ducks, Sens and Sabres were. It was a good run and could have been better but I am happy with what they did. They showed me a lot.

And I would love to hear some "enforcers" out there that will make a difference. Enforcers don't make a difference come playoff time. Joey Kocur didn't "enforce" anything in 97 and 98 playoff runs. He was a physical aspect but he wasn't out there getting in fights and neither were McCarty or Lapointe. They played physical but would chip in offensively. Mike Grier I think showed me a lot in the series against the wings. Thats the type of player that would be helpful. But these so called enforcers don't play a role.

[skacore 2]

No it wasn't. It was a few bounces that didn't go there way.

And no there is no need for an enforcer. Would Stu Grimson or a player like him done anything? He would have been sitting on the bench come playoff time. Was Brad May, all though he brings slightly more than what a Grimson would, the reason the Ducks won? No. I thought Bert was the type of player the Wings were looking for, someone who could score but could handle his own physically, and I can't blame them for not giving him a longer deal than one year with all the FA's coming up next year. But an enforcer doesn't do much in today's nhl.

Brad May provided a lot more on Anaheim's 4th line than Tomas Kopecky did for Detroit's 4th line

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Brad May provided a lot more on Anaheim's 4th line than Tomas Kopecky did for Detroit's 4th line

Games May played vs. games Kopper played.

GP G A P +/- PIM

24 0 4 4 -1 21

26 1 0 1 -2 22

That's a WHOLE lot more.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Wings_Dynasty

[skacore 2]

Games May played vs. games Kopper played.

GP G A P +/- PIM

24 0 4 4 -1 21

26 1 0 1 -2 22

That's a WHOLE lot more.

we're talking about the playoffs here and WHO CARES ABOUT STATS, I watch hockey I don't really need to fall back on stats 90% of the time, do you? Brad May forechecked like a maniac, wasn't a liability at all, wore our team down and if it was necessary, he was always there incase things got out of hand (say Schnedier/Lilja rammed Palhsson's head into the glass from behind... believe me there would be redemption). Kopecky... not so much... he tried to play physical but it's just not his game, he is trying to turn around his physical game to suit our depth lines but it just hasn't been working out so far

[sticknmove 0]

"This "sof tteam of European wusses" almost went to the SCF last year"

KEY WORD IS ALMOST. they didnt win, and with the lack of size and toughness in the lineup they will not win the cup this year, i am not happy about that, i am not content with that either, however i realize that it is a fact Yes it is absolutely ridiculous that ppl can try to legitimatly argue points like "Would Stu Grimson have changed things", and "The Wings would of won if a couple bounces went their way" It doesnt matter, both are non-points in this argument because the outcome has allready occured, we lost. We were close, very clse to having the team we needed, and we remain on the verge of having that team right now but losing bertuzzi (which i was never a huge fan of but i realize he is a big, physical body that we despretly need) and markov and adding drake was like taking one step forward and two steps back.

AND STFU about it being a stereotype euros are soft, the majority of euros are skill and finesse players, who do not base their game around a in your face, gritty hockey style. Its not a negative thing its just how it is. I love our euros, and europeans in the NHL at that, and without skill, speed, finesse, etc guys a team wouldnt be able to winchampionships either. I am just saying we need a mixtre of that element and then some toughness and grit to complement it.

PS-it's not a question wether or not Babcock likes having enforcers in his lineup, look at his years in Anaheim. If it were up to him we would be dressing a insurance policy each and every night.

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[StevieY9802 6]

Brad May provided a lot more on Anaheim's 4th line than Tomas Kopecky did for Detroit's 4th line

I never said anything about Kopecky and May had a whole 1 assist in 18 playoff games. Even though I am sure his physical play helped the Ducks but was he really all that intimidating or enforcing in the playoffs? Thats what people in here seem to be looking for. I barely remember him playing.

[GMRwings1983 8,801]

It seems like a lot of you are still living in the past when we had Larionov, Robitaille, and Holmstrom playing on our fourth line, thus there were valuable roster spots that couldn't be given up for an enforcer. The truth is that we don't have that kind of depth anymore, therefore, I believe that we wouldn't lose anything by bringing in an enforcer.

[TheBadOne 0]

I'm not usually one to post on this forum (even on this topic, MOST everyone had good argument, for and against the idea of an enforcer), but this is one I have to sound off on. It just sucks I'm late to the party

Don Cherry said it best that Detroit isn't a tough team, they're a difficult team. Bertuzzi didn't bring toughness, he brought difficulty (except when he bodyslammed Phaneuf... that was cool.) Same as Drake will do now. So given the level of talent on the team, do the Wings go and get an enforcer, a one-dimensional player who can only fight, or do they find a young player or a specialist of sorts to utilize in certain situations...

Sorry to say it folks, but yes, they need an enforcer, in addition to more people in their regular lines willing to drop the gloves.

To those who've pointed out the Wings still finished first in the Conference, yes they did, but we can't deny the fact that Nashville was the team's only suitable rival in the Central Division. That isn't to say the Wings didn't have to work against St. Louis, Columbus, or Chicago, but that there are other divisions out there where finishing first would have had a higher level of satisfaction because of better quality teams. Also, the other high-quality teams may have an enforcer, but they also have other people who are able to drop the gloves if need be.

The fact is that other teams in the league know of Detroit's lack of enforcement and take liberties with it. Even Schneider told the local media before he went to Anaheim that he was sick of other teams bullying the Red Wings because no one would do anything about it. If a team can play tough like Anaheim, yet not take stupid penalties at bad times like Calgary did, then that level of intimidation is absolutely going to play a factor in ruining the mental game of the Red Wings.

However, the Wings themselves really aren't that far from having a tougher team based on who they have right now. Looking at the offensive lines, Kopecky has the right size for fighting (and judging by some of the video clips I've seen of him fighting in GR, he isn't half bad at it.) If the roster spot's available for a fourth-line forward, then it would be a good idea to pick up McCarty, who didn't work out in Calgary because he never left Detroit as far as I'm concerned. Besides, he should retire as a Red Wing anyway.

Defensively, Quincey and Meech is still not required to clear waivers in order to be re-assigned, and given the level of defensive depth, it might be better for them to play a full season in GR than to be a 7th D-man. Signing Markov would be nice, but if the Wings don't, then again, they can work with what they have.

Lilja surprised everyone by getting into two fights last year and actually winning the one he had against Patrick Sharp. This was better than what happened earlier in the season, when Denis Gauthier jumped Lilja. Nothing happened to that turd Gauthier and as a result, the Flyers, the worst team in the league, still managed to beat the Wings 6-1 because of the level of intimidation. If Lilja can find a fighting aspect to his game it could open up a new dimension to his play and make him even more valuable as a Top-6 defenseman than he is already. As for the 7th D-Man, why not Ference? Frankly, the Wing's defensive depth is that good to the point where if the guy was dressed occasionally, then it could only help. With Lidstrom, Rafalski, Chelios, and Kronwall in the Top 4 (and Lebda chasing them for one of those spots), there isn't much to worry about on the blue line. If the guy can win a fight or two in the pre-season, then I'm all for it. All I know is if someone else does gets signed to play defense, then there's a defensemen who's gonna get moved.

So as I said, the Red Wings need an enforcer. That enforcer is Joe Kocur. Before everyone either dies of laughter or completely dismisses me, I think that considering his experience as an assistant coach, there wouldn't be anything wrong with him acting as a consultant for the Red Wings and essentially helping the other players develop their fighting techniques. It's been done in the minors, and the Boogaard brothers have their own enforcer camp they have during the summer. Why not have one of the best in the business show you how it's done? Hell, people take karate lessons and don't have to necessarily use them on a day to day basis. Way I see it, the Red Wings don't have to come out of the gates and start swinging, but if someone does take some liberties, they can at least be adept to defending themselves and reverse whatever psychological effects that opposing enforcers can have on the team.

That's what I have to say about that.

Edited July 19, 2007 by TheBadOne

[StevieY9802 6]

It seems like a lot of you are still living in the past when we had Larionov, Robitaille, and Holmstrom playing on our fourth line, thus there were valuable roster spots that couldn't be given up for an enforcer. The truth is that we don't have that kind of depth anymore, therefore, I believe that we wouldn't lose anything by bringing in an enforcer.

Well lets go with last years playoff lines since this years roster isn't set yet. Now these are the lines that were played in the games in Anaheim after Dats and Zetterberg were broken up.

Flip - Datyuk - Homer

Franzen - Zetterberg - Sammy

Cleary - Lang - Bert

Calder/Kopecky - Draper - Maltby

You probably put them on the Draper - Maltby line but who? No one has given me a name yet. The so called enforcer just doesn't work these days. They play 4 minutes a game when the games count from April-June because you want someone tough but you want someone who can skate. A guy in the mold of Lapointe or McCarty would be great. Someone who can play regular minutes and play physical but isn't a risk out there defensively and can chip in on offense when needed. But it's hard to find those guys. I would love to get Mike Grier like I said. He looked good against the Wings. He was probably the Sharks best player. I don't think an enforcer puts the Wings in the cup finals last season. I think health does. Bert at 100% and a healthy Schneider make a world of difference imo, and Kronner too.

And I think the 4th line when Bert was in, and before those 2 were broken up was something like Flip, Franzen and Calder. So take out Calder and put in "enforcer." I just don't know if that puts them over the top.

Defensively, Quincey and Meech are still not required to clear waivers in order to be re-assigned.

Actually Meech does need to clear waivers.

Edited July 19, 2007 by StevieY9802

[Zion 93]

Great thread. Excellent post, TBO.

[TheBadOne 0]

Actually Meech does need to clear waivers.

Taken from RedWingsCentral.com

"Meech had a breakthrough year in 2006-07, establishing himself as an AHL all-star and showing he has what it takes to play in the NHL. That said, the Red Wings have a glut of blue-line depth -- with fellow prospect Kyle Quincey is ahead of Meech on the depth chart -- and it will likely be tough for him to crack the NHL roster in 2007-08. He doesn't have to clear waivers to be sent to the minors, and may end up back in the AHL depending on how things shake out in the off-season."

http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/meech.html

[sticknmove 0]

*I posted this in another thread but I am putting it here to for nothing more then the fact i kind of found it funny, especially after so many ppl on this board did nothing but rag on the guy* dont rip my head off, i am not saying "aww i am pissed, we should of kept this guy", i amnot saying that at all i am just saying you would have thought he was 0-5-0

if all you did were listen to posts about him and didnt actually watch the tilts.

BRAD NORTONS FIGHT CARD/RECORD WITH THE DETROIT RED WINGS:

Sep 22, 2006 1pd 10:04 @ DET TAM Nick Tarnasky

-win Norton

Oct 07, 2006 1pd 04:26 DET @ PIT Andre Roy

-Voted winner: Draw (40.6%)

Oct 13, 2006 1pd 14:10 @ DET BUF Andrew Peters

-Voted winner: Andrew Peters (62.0%)

Oct 16, 2006 1pd 02:07 DET @ LOS Raitis Ivanans

-Voted winner: Brad Norton (47.8%)

Oct 18, 2006 3pd 03:18 DET @ ANA Shane O'Brien

-Voted winner: Draw (67.4%)

So in his 5 fights when wih the Wings (1 Preseason and 4 regular season) he was 2-1-2. No not the heavyweight champ but given the names on his fight card this was far from a bad showing.

[therock48880 14]

If your expectations every single season is cup or bust and anything less than that is major dissapointment and a complete failure, then you'll never be satisfied.

Shouldn't that be the goal? Failure to achieve your goal is just that, failure. I'm not saying it's a complete washout but it IS a failure if you don't achieve your goal. Some positive things came out of last season's postseason run, no doubt. But they still failed to achieve their goal, which was to win the Cup. I doubt if they went into the season saying, "we need to get to the wcf before we lose".

P.S. I'd take Grier in a heatbeat.

Edited July 19, 2007 by therock48880

[GMRwings1983 8,801]

Well lets go with last years playoff lines since this years roster isn't set yet. Now these are the lines that were played in the games in Anaheim after Dats and Zetterberg were broken up.

Flip - Datyuk - Homer

Franzen - Zetterberg - Sammy

Cleary - Lang - Bert

Calder/Kopecky - Draper - Maltby

You probably put them on the Draper - Maltby line but who? No one has given me a name yet. The so called enforcer just doesn't work these days. They play 4 minutes a game when the games count from April-June because you want someone tough but you want someone who can skate. A guy in the mold of Lapointe or McCarty would be great. Someone who can play regular minutes and play physical but isn't a risk out there defensively and can chip in on offense when needed. But it's hard to find those guys. I would love to get Mike Grier like I said. He looked good against the Wings. He was probably the Sharks best player. I don't think an enforcer puts the Wings in the cup finals last season. I think health does. Bert at 100% and a healthy Schneider make a world of difference imo, and Kronner too.

And I think the 4th line when Bert was in, and before those 2 were broken up was something like Flip, Franzen and Calder. So take out Calder and put in "enforcer." I just don't know if that puts them over the top.

Actually Meech does need to clear waivers.

An enforcer would not put this team over the top as you say, but it's hard to watch a scumbag like Pronger or Iginla running someone into the boards and knowing that we aren't going to retaliate. I'm beginning to think that Holland is a firm believer in Mahatma Gandhi's theory of nonviolent resistance. I just know that other teams feel like there's a green light at running Wings players, and I think that that has to be put to an end.

[StevieY9802 6]

Taken from RedWingsCentral.com

"Meech had a breakthrough year in 2006-07, establishing himself as an AHL all-star and showing he has what it takes to play in the NHL. That said, the Red Wings have a glut of blue-line depth -- with fellow prospect Kyle Quincey is ahead of Meech on the depth chart -- and it will likely be tough for him to crack the NHL roster in 2007-08. He doesn't have to clear waivers to be sent to the minors, and may end up back in the AHL depending on how things shake out in the off-season."

http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/meech.html

From Mlive.com

"The Wings have six D under contract in the NHL (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Chelios, Lilja and Lebda) and will sign restricted free agent Derek Meech, who can't be sent to Grand Rapids without waivers. They also have Kyle Quincey, who can go to GR without waivers."

http://blog.mlive.com/redwingsinsider/2007...sek_bertuz.html

An enforcer would not put this team over the top as you say, but it's hard to watch a scumbag like Pronger or Iginla running someone into the boards and knowing that we aren't going to retaliate. I'm beginning to think that Holland is a firm believer in Mahatma Gandhi's theory of nonviolent resistance. I just know that other teams feel like there's a green light at running Wings players, and I think that that has to be put to an end.

Fair enough. But the nonresistant thing worked against the Flames for the most part. They took stupid penalty after stupid penalty. Bert stood up and got in a fight in game 5. I would have liked to see a little more but it was probably better to stay away from it since the Flames seemed to go crazy. As for Pronger I don't know if anything will stop him from doing that. He tends to be stupid at the wrong times, for his team. Like I said keeping Bert would have been great because he can be physical and tough and give you offense, but that didn't happen.

[sticknmove 0]

Tomas Kopecky #28: 2006-07 DET 26 games played 1 goal 0 assists 1 pt -2 22 PIM

Brad Norton #16: 2006-2007 DET 6 games played 0 goals 1 assis 1 pt +2 20 PIM

*Haha funny when comparing, you would think Kopecky would catch as much scrutiny as Norton but nah, shows that anti fighter bias, haha i playing

[GMRwings1983 8,801]

Tomas Kopecky #28: 2006-07 DET 26 games played 1 goal 0 assists 1 pt -2 22 PIM

Brad Norton #16: 2006-2007 DET 6 games played 0 goals 1 assis 1 pt +2 20 PIM

*Haha funny when comparing, you would think Kopecky would catch as much scrutiny as Norton but nah, shows that anti fighter bias, haha i playing

Great point, that is what I was trying to argue when this topic began.

[TheBadOne 0]

From Mlive.com

"The Wings have six D under contract in the NHL (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Chelios, Lilja and Lebda) and will sign restricted free agent Derek Meech, who can't be sent to Grand Rapids without waivers. They also have Kyle Quincey, who can go to GR without waivers."

Well, I did some additional research, and I think you got me.

From USATODAY.com

PLAYER NOTES:

â€â€The Wings expect to sign restricted free agent D Derek Meech this summer. He'll be their seventh defenseman, as he is out of options and can't return to Grand Rapids (AHL) without waivers.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/...otes.htm?csp=34

[StevieY9802 6]

Well, I did some additional research, and I think you got me.

From USATODAY.com

PLAYER NOTES:

â€â€The Wings expect to sign restricted free agent D Derek Meech this summer. He'll be their seventh defenseman, as he is out of options and can't return to Grand Rapids (AHL) without waivers.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/...otes.htm?csp=34

I thought I was right and that I thought Holland said it in an interview on WDFN. But you had me wondering who, of the two sources we posted, were wrong. I think it would be better for him to be playing down there as well and the same with Quincey, who obviously can. Better to have them playing and developing then just sitting and watching most of the time until someone gets hurt.

Edited July 19, 2007 by StevieY9802

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I can honestly agree with that. I know it's kind of dumb in a way, but I would MUCH rather be supporting a skilled, tough group of true hockey players who were eliminated in the first round rather than the team we have right now. I just can't stand watching players not sticking up for their teammates, it kills me... I know most fans would just be happy with a cup win and I would have loved for us to win the cup this year, but at the same time I would much rather a team that takes situations into their own hands rather than tattling to a referee, that's just how hockey has always been. It is really hard for a group of loyal hockey fans who love tough, physical play to have to adjust to this kind of game night in and night out while the rest of the hockey world sees us as *******, and can you blame them?

Nice to see someone who feels the same. My attitude towards the WIngs 10 years ago and today are like night and day. I wouldve never believed for one second that we'd end up with a team with no fighters on it...

I seen Chris Thorburn's name mentioned somewhere in this thread, and im telling ya, I really wish we'd had made an offer to Pittsburgh for him before Atlanta acquired him. If I had to pick one player who'd become the next Neil or Moen...it would be him. I have a feeling he's going to turn out to be a really good, valuable player.

Great--find us a guy like Travis Moen and I'm sure everyone will be happy to take him. I believe you're missing the point, which is that nobody like that is available.

Nobody like that will ever be available! Why? Because their teams know how valuable they are. You have to find these guys BEFORE they reach that level, and turn them into something. Thats why you take chances with physical, tough players on your 4th line.

Would you have wanted Moen back when he was on Chicago? I highly doubt it, nor would probably 95% of the other posters.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Maybe we should make it clear what the difference between an enforcer and a tough hockey player is.

I dunno - I consider enforcers guys like Boogaard, McGratton, Parros, and Parker. These guys have a sole purpose on the team and that is to throw there weight around and fight when told.

I consider guys like Moen, Chris Neil, and Sean Avery tough guys. They see regular ice time on the third or fourth line, and actually manage to put up respectable numbers.

Do the Wings need a guy like Neil? Heck yes, any team does. He sticks up for teammates, drops the gloves when necessary*, and put the puck in the net. But do I think they need a McGratton or Parros? Absolutely not. They don't fit into the Wings game plan. The Wings are a puck possession team - guys like Parros have trouble skating the puck out of there own end, let alone setting up pressure in the offensive zone. I just don't think Holland and Babcock are going to devote cap and roster space to a guy who can't play within the system they are working. Chris Neil and even McCarty of 7-8 years ago are/were able to maintain toughness while still playing within a system. A highly question a Parros type players ability to do that.

I think the enforcer days are slowly coming to an end. Teams value tough guys who can still compete at the NHL level with the puck on there stick.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Yzerfan1999

[skacore 2]

Maybe we should make it clear what the difference between an enforcer and a tough hockey player is.

I dunno - I consider enforcers guys like Boogaard, McGratton, Parros, and Parker. These guys have a sole purpose on the team and that is to throw there weight around and fight when told.

I consider guys like Moen, Chris Neil, and Sean Avery tough guys. They see regular ice time on the third or fourth line, and actually manage to put up respectable numbers.

Do the Wings need a guy like Neil? Heck yes, any team does. He sticks up for teammates, drops the gloves when necessary*, and put the puck in the net. But do I think they need a McGratton or Parros? Absolutely not. They don't fit into the Wings game plan. The Wings are a puck possession team - guys like Parros have trouble skating the puck out of there own end, let alone setting up pressure in the offensive zone. I just don't think Holland and Babcock are going to devote cap and roster space to a guy who can't play within the system they are working. Chris Neil and even McCarty of 7-8 years ago are/were able to maintain toughness while still playing within a system. A highly question a Parros type players ability to do that.

I think the enforcer days are slowly coming to an end. Teams value tough guys who can still compete at the NHL level with the puck on there stick.

not really... they have come to an end in Detroit and a hand full of other cities but more than half of the teams out there (including most successful ones - Anaheim, Ottawa, Buffalo) carry a legit enforcer

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

we're talking about the playoffs here and WHO CARES ABOUT STATS, I watch hockey I don't really need to fall back on stats 90% of the time, do you? Brad May forechecked like a maniac, wasn't a liability at all, wore our team down and if it was necessary, he was always there incase things got out of hand (say Schnedier/Lilja rammed Palhsson's head into the glass from behind... believe me there would be redemption). Kopecky... not so much... he tried to play physical but it's just not his game, he is trying to turn around his physical game to suit our depth lines but it just hasn't been working out so far

No, I don't need to fall back on stats. But Kopecky came back from an injury and was not at 100% during the playoffs. Brad May was at 100% and had stats comparable to Kopecky. No one was afraid of the Ducks fighting prowess in the playoffs, only their blueline and goaltending.

I would rather have Kopecky than Brad May. At least with Kopecky there is a chance of there being talent where as to May there is no chance.

But I expect you to argue this point as well and I'm sure that someone who wants Chris Simon on the Wings will have strong feelings as to why toughness and cheapshots to players (see any one Simon or May's highlight reels) have a place on a puck-possession based team over players who have offensive upsdes.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

not really... they have come to an end in Detroit and a hand full of other cities but more than half of the teams out there (including most successful ones - Anaheim, Ottawa, Buffalo) carry a legit enforcer

If you consider Buffalo successful, why is Detroit left out of that group?